Melchizedek is a mysterious Old Testament figure. He appears on the stage out of nowhere, it seems. Then he jumps right back into obscurity.
If you’re unfamiliar with the story, you can read it in Genesis 14:17-24. Abram and his army of servants and allies, defeated an invading army and rescued the people and possessions of Sodom, his nephew Lot among them. After this surprising victory, Melchizedek appears on the scene with bread, wine and a blessing. After blessing Abram and God, he receives a tenth of all the spoils from Abram’s hand. Then that’s it. He’s gone.
We do know a few other things about him. His name means king of righteousness, and he was the king of Salem (which means peace). He’s also referred to as a priest of God Most High. Ps. 110 speaks of Christ being a “priest forever after the order of Melchizedek” and Hebrews 7 builds on that.
For the purposes of my post, it’s clear that Melchizedek is a type of Christ (see Heb. 7:3). He is a Priest-King, and Jesus is the Prophet-Priest-King. Considering that God knew all along that Melchizedek was a type of Christ, and since God orchestrates all of history, including the events of Genesis 14, I think there is something for us to learn here from Melchizedek’s bringing bread and wine to Abram.
I was reading the 8th portrait of Christ in Bob Beasley’s book 101 Portraits of Jesus in the Hebrew Scriptures, when I was struck by this simple line, “He [Melchizedek] brings bread and wine, elements we use in the Lord’s Supper.” Melchizedek brought bread and wine, like in the Lord’s Supper. So I thought, what does this teach me about the Lord’s Supper? The answer might seem too simple and obvious but I think it is quite important.
The Lord’s Supper is a blessing that Jesus brings to us. It isn’t just a rite to be observed, but Jesus, comes to us bringing bread and wine. He blesses us through the meal He shares with us. As Melchizedek blessed Abram along with the bread and wine He shared with him, so Christ blesses us as we partake of holy communion.
The supper, after all, is Christ’s idea, His ordinance for His church. He says the elements represent His body and we should remember Him as we eat of it. In previous posts on the Lord’s Supper, I’ve shown how the idea of sharing a meal with God is behind the Lord’s Supper in part. I mentioned before that Wayne Grudem highlights Ex. 24:9-11 and Deut. 14:23-26 as examples of God’s eating with men. Perhaps this story of Melchizedek foreshadows those meals as well.
In the Supper, all the blessings we get come from Christ. Ultimately the bread and wine come from Him as well. This coming Sunday we’ll partake of the Lord’s Supper at my church, and I am eager to receive a blessing from the hand of Christ my Melchizedek. A blessing given through my enjoyment of the joy of wine, and the sustenance of bread. May Jesus be ever more my blessing, my joy, and my life’s sustenance. Amen!
Prefigured Christ – What does that mean? I’m not real smart… that sounds scary…
Sorry about that. Prefigured, means foreshadowed. Melchizedek was a prefiguring — a foreshadowing — of Christ. It’s almost like a Christophony. (To use another big term!) Hope that helps.
Forgive my confusion,
Sorry but it seems a bit of circular reasoning in that bible stating Christ is a “priest forever after the order of Melchizedekâ€, however, you then stating “Considering that God knew all along that Melchizedek was a type of Christâ€.
I understand the need to somehow make Jesus unique but lets be honest he was a Jewish prophet following a long line of prophets, quoting and observant of the Law bought by Moses and observant of Jewish customs and traditions. Jesus’ emergence is hardly ground breaking, his ministry faced the same ups and downs of the preceeding prophets.
Whereas, we have Melchizedek, whose existence is in fact ground breaking. King of Salem, no beginning no end, Abram saluting him. He on the other hand is unique, therefore, I see the need for some to co-opt, who is, as it may lead to uncomfortable questions about his status, thus you state the inverse of what the biblical verse say “Considering that God knew all along that Melchizedek was a type of Christâ€
Hal,
Thanks for taking the time to submit your comment here. I can understand your question.
First, the New Testament presents Jesus Christ as far more than a mere prophet. In fact today at my church, our pastor preached on what the titles Son of God and Son of Man really meant. Tomorrow at desiringgod.org, you’ll be able to read or download a free copy of Pastor Piper’s message. Just check out Jn. 1:1, 5:18, 8:58, 10:33 etc.
Second, Melchizadek is mentioned in Hebrews as having no beginning or end. This is not to say he had no birth or death. He comes on the scene in the Old Testament without a clear lineage (son of who???), and no death recorded. This, the author of Hebrews, is similar to Christ. Christ truly has no beginning or end. In fact Revelation presents Christ as the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.
You are misunderstanding the pivotal role Jesus Christ has in all of Biblical history. Jesus was born of a virgin, but he existed before Abraham was. Jesus is the Word of God who is God. Jesus died but rose again, and lives forever now of His own accord. Jesus will be the one who raises the dead and gives life to his own, by his own power (again see John 5).
Men like David, Melchizadek, Moses, etc. are all partial types of who Jesus really is.
Again a great place to start in understanding the place of Jesus in Christianity and the Bible is by reading the Gospel of John. And listening to today’s sermon when its available online for download tomorrow at desiringgod.org will be helpful too.
Blessings in Christ be upon you,
Bob Hayton
Thank you for your response and I look forward to listening to Pastor Piper’s message.
My point was, the fact that a comparison could be legitimately made between Jesus and others, in itself nullifies any uniqueness, so typically a detailed explanation or commentary must be provided by leaders to supplement the bible, to explain why that is not the case.
For example, even though the text states that Melchizedek has no parents, no beginning or ending and Christ will be a, “priest forever after the order of Melchizedekâ€. The verse itself denotes the sequence or time-frame. To then continue and underline Melchizedek bringing of bread and wine, as being “Jesus’ idea†for the last supper or a possible “foreshadowing†of the event to come. Could it be out of the question, in keeping faithful to the verse that Jesus actually “followed after the order of Melchizedek†and modeled the last supper after Melchizedek’s. Also a foreshadowing for whose benefit, certainly not the Old Testament crowd, particularly Melchizedek’s audience. It’s only in the context of the New Testament could it be rationalized, but then is comes off as a usurping, which now leaves us room to say “Melchizedek is a type of Christ†and “Men like David, Melchizadek, Moses, etc. are all partial types of who Jesus really is.â€
Christ himself was observant of the law and in fact emphasized his position in respects to the law and the preceding prophets. In that regards we see biblical characters whose existence came about from a virgin birth, or with no parents at all, characters that will never see death, ascended to heaven, resurrected the dead, and suffered greatly for their faithfulness. If it is a foreshadowing of men, deeds, and miraculous acts of things to come then how can it be viewed as unique? Then again, I look forward to listening to the explanation of what the Semitic idioms of what the “Son of Man†and “Son of God†really means and if those terms were exclusive to one character.
Thank you for your consideration
Hal
I have often talked to my Father-in-law about this passage in the OT. He believes that Mel. is in actuality Christ, like when Christ appeared to Abraham with 2 angels, or when Christ appeared to Joshua as the Captian of the Lord’s hosts. He believes this because of that verse in Heberews “without mother or father” which he interprets (I believe) over-literally.
I think that verse is making a comparason between Christ’s type of priesthood (after the order of Mel.) and the Aaronic priesthood in which each priest had to be verified by geneological records in Scripture that they were indeed qualified. I think there is a place in Nehemiah or Ezra where one family who made claims to the priesthood were denied because their names could not be found in the Aaronic geneological records….so the comparason is:
The Aaronic priesthood: human, limited, verified through records
Christ’s priesthood: divine, eternal as forshadowed in Melchisedec, who had no birth record, no geneological record.
But that’s just what I think that whole thing in Hebrews means, in keeping with the theme, Christ is better than_____________.
Just a thought.
Please excuse the spelling, I didn’t have time to proof-read it :0)
Hal,
If we accept the New Testament book of Hebrews as Scripture–inerrant words penned by men yet breathed out by God, the ultimate author–then we have to figure out what the book means when it talks of Melchizadek. John S. above gives a good explanation.
Furthermore, if Hebrews is God’s word, the entire book preaches a singular message with unmistakable force: Jesus Christ is far better than anyone or any institution found before his time. In fact, Jesus is the “exact imprint of [God’s] nature”. He is at the right hand of God. He is one to whom God referred to as “God” see Hebrews 1. In fact the New Testament teaching about Christ would be blasphemous unless Christ really was existant before Abraham was. Over and over again, titles for God in the Old Testament are applied to Christ. He is set forth as the Messiah, and even the very Son of God. Many times he is given the title “God” and often he is equated with the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
The New Testament also reveals that many Old Testament events and persons were types of the new Gospel age and of Jesus Christ himself. In light of the fuller revelation, which was hidden in the Old Testament but now revealed in all its majesty in the new, the Old Testament is seen to in countless ways point forward to the grandeur of Jesus Christ.
It seems you are accepting the witness of Hebrews as it speaks of Melchizadek. Perhpas you are unaware of the place Jesus has in Christianity, I think not however. This place is not some conjured up man-made fable, however. The Scriptural argument for Christ’s deity is quite convincing.
Yes these things are hard to be understood. They are spiritually discerned.
May God grant you eyes to see. Again I pray you read prayerfully through the Gospel of John seeking to see how Jesus is portrayed and Who He really is.
Blessings in Christ be upon you,
Bob Hayton
BTW – Bob is exactly right on Melchisedec being a type, a fore-shadowing of Christ. How do we know..b/c the Holy Spirit told the writer of Hebrews, that’s how.
“In light of the fuller revelation, which was hidden in the Old Testament but now revealed in all its majesty in the new, the Old Testament is seen to in countless ways point forward to the grandeur of Jesus Christ.â€
???
My understanding of revelation is, that it is well, “revealingâ€. If not, it kind of defeat the purpose and to say the Old Testament give a pristine picture of salvation in the contemporary Christian sense, is simply not true. With that being the case the revelation was “hidden†only to be decoded centuries upon centuries later through the compilation of the New Testament. Nevermind the people, who existed in between, not to mention, Christians themselves who eagerly waited for the canonical stamp of approval and lets not forget the prophets upon prophets themselves, who received ‘revelation†and intrepreted the Old Testament and presented a formula of faith/works and obedience to the law for salvation. Perhaps centuries of fore-shadowing is the answer ! Who needs centuries of historical foundation and context, unlike previous generations, our spirits have had the great fortune of being born now to see the grandeur.
My only question is why would God keep the very key to salvation that governs the universe, and a truth that cleanses man of his sin and grants him heaven, why would he keep that hidden ?
Signing off
Hal
Hal,
Ephesians 3 is just one of the places which teach that New Testament revelation was in some sense hidden in previous generations.
“…how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I ahve written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel.” (Eph. 3:3-6)
1 Peter gives more:
“Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. IT was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.” (1 Pet. 1:10-12)
Now this is not to say that a saving revelation was not given before Christ. But the faith God’s people had was faith in God’s message of a coming deliverer and of salvation. The lambs that were sacrificed, as in the Passover, symbolized the requirement of blood being shed to satisfy God’s wrath. Jesus when he entered his ministry was proclaimed to be the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
Jesus himself said that he would be raised up even as the brazen serpent was raised up for the healing of the nation. (Jn. 3:14). Moses anticipated a coming prophet who would be given God’s words, and whom the people would obey (Deut. 18:15-19). Again the Book of Hebrews points out how Jesus sacrifice was the point of the sacrificial system, it all pointed to Him. Jesus priesthood was better. Jesus was superior to Moses. Jesus is God’s Son.
Now God did hide the complete understanding of who Christ was going to be to the people. But God did disclose sufficient revelation for personal salvation to his people Israel. A covenant love for God and a trust in His gracious promises was what was required of His people. Even non-Israelites were grafted into His people through faith and allegiance to God.
Yet we cannot avoid the fact that God did choose to withold this revelation to some. We are not exactly told all God did or didn’t do, but the revelation as we have it was given to the Israelites and not another nation in another locale. Gentiles were largely excluded, although those who would search after God would find him. God has implanted in every heart a witness to the truth of God’s existence, and He created the world which testifies to the same. No one can claim innocence or guiltlessness. All are guilty before Him.
Because of wicked deeds, every single person has earned God’s displeasure. They violate their conscience and do things which transgress the inbuilt moral code. And if they know of God’s law, they have broken that too.
God is under no compulsion to spare anyone from their just deserved punishment for sin. But in grace He chose to elect some to eternal salvation by His Son’s work on the cross. That anyone receives divine revelation at all is merely a gift. Why should our Creator be obligated to care much if anything at all for us? Yet he does care for us and showers all his creatures with good will and pleasant things, and has spread the gospel to the corners of the earth. He is bringing together a people of His own choosing (for his own reasons not any good in them), and He is making them pure and granting them faith and revealing wondrous things to them. And this entirely of grace.
You ask good questions Hal. The answers are there. I encourage you to check out this link for more on the central message of Christianity. And the Christian Scriptures (Old and New Testaments) will amply repay prayerful study. God will guide you if you follow after Him.
Jesus himself said, that he is the only way to God the Father: “Jesus said to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6). Peter speaks the message of the New Testament clearly when he proclaims: “And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12, speaking of Jesus).
Blessings through Jesus Christ,
Bob Hayton
Deuteronomy 29:29 EVS
29″The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Proverbs 25:2 EVS
2 It is the glory of God to (A) conceal things, but the glory of kings is to (B) search things out.
I believe when we take the time to search things out…we receive the benefit of the revelation… The knowledge contained becomes embeded (if you will) in our hearts…We are by nature curious creatures and the Holy Spirit inside us excites our desire to know the things of God…
Thank you Bob, for a very thoughful response.
In your explanation of Christianity and in fact all Christians explanation of Christianity, the starting point is always the explanation of how Jesus is your personal savior and an emphasize on his status. Its only after the laying of this foundation, you provide the context, in which to explain the New Testament and now fully understand the centuries old “Old Testament†as your posts has intimated on this thread. Now, imagine how unrational it would be if you explained Christianity leaving Jesus, the source of salvation as the last subject of your studies.
Of course this implies that for centuries God has allowed generation upon generation to study the word of God (Old Testament) in vain and out of context. So Nancy when we conduct our search, such a search can only be done through scripture and if you existed prior to the compilation of the New testament your search would be in vain. Also Bob to be given, “sufficient revelation for personal salvation“ void of knowing Jesus, his status and that he has died for your sins and before the actual act, also not so subtlely implies salvation through a road other than “the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through meâ€.
Centuries of foundations, laying the law and sending prophets to re-enforce that understanding, which before was sufficient for personal salvation, is now totally jettison with the evolution of time and now proven to be totally impossible to gain salvation for the people of the post Jesus age.
This is all over the place, incomprehendable, and does injustice to multitudes.
Of course there are mysteries throughout revelation, but when it comes to salvation in a truth that governs all of existence irrespective of time, it should be pristine clear and layed out in the first of day rather than in the last days, by the All Knowing and All Just God. Since God is All knowing and Just, the only explanation could be that the Christian perspective is completely wrong. Nonetheless, I appreciate your time.
Thank you
Hal
Hal,
It does seem that you have read some scripture… May I suggest that you read Chapter 5 of the Gospel of John…It is not long and I believe it is pertinent in the searching of the scriptures…
Hal,
It seems you are setting up certain conditions for God to fulfill. You are arbitrarily declaring what is just and fair, and choosing just how God must do his work of revelation and redemption.
As Nancy points out above, we receive the Scriptures and obey what they say. If God revealed Himself in Scripture we must listen to what God has declared. I realize you may not accept Scripture (Old or New Testament) as inspired revelation from God. But all we know of Jesus, most of it anyway, comes to us in the Gospels. And over and over again, Jesus is overturning the standard assumptions of the Judaism of his day. After his resurrection, repeatedly the Gospels tell us that Jesus opened the mind of the disciples to see all that was written concerning him. See especially Luke 24 in that regard. Even before his crucifixion Jesus was teaching that it was prophesied that he would die and suffer. The writings of the disciples of Jesus concur with this testimony. The gospel they teach has Jesus elevated far beyond anything Old Testament Judaism quite conceived. Jesus is one to be worshipped.
The Old Testament as a whole begs for an additional book to bring conclusion to it. The promises point us forward with expectations that are unfulfilled when the last writings are finished (Malachi and other post-exilic books). The New Testament harmonizes wonderfully on the Old testament. It builds the story and progresses it to a glorious conclusion.
That God progressively revealed his plan is apparent even in the old testament, with Adam and Noah having just a small amount of revelation compared with Abraham who in turn has less than Moses, and he has less than what is revealed with David. The New Testament is just additional progressive revelation.
Nancy, not have I only studied the scripture old and new, I also studied the history surrounding the compilation, which is a matter of fact in which many Christians themselves admit and not a mere interpretation, my question is, have you. It explains the game changing 180 degree movement in the New Testament and in turn Christianity
This is the point when Christians turn off, I challenge you or anyone to consider this and even respond if it is incorrect, in any case I expect silence from you.
1. Have you studied anything about the first or second century Christians, who are the direct inheritors of Jesus, who themselves accepted Jesus but still lived as he did implementing the law of the Torah. The original Christians practices and beliefs differ so widely from contemporary Christianity, why is that?
2. Have you studied under who auspices, the nature of Jesus (as it was a hot debate within Christianity) were made official and the Bible was compiled and canonized. Give you a clue it was a Pagan emperor. Did you study about the many books they were rejected to be apart of the bible and the books that were accepted, as there were dozens upon dozens of Gospels and Books. Who distinguish what from what, give you a clue it was not the holy ghost?
3. Ever wonder why, Paul is considered the first Christians and has a status above the actual disciples and the pillars of the church, which he, himself was admittedly subordinate to. This gave the Roman legitimacy over those Jewish/law leaning original Christians. Ironically, enough it explains why the language of scripture then leaves it Semitic history and now becomes Greek
4. Along with the language, do you ever ask yourself why the Sabbath was change with no scriptural authorization, and it was changed to coincide with the Pagan day of worship, the “day of the sun†or Sunday. Or why Birthday of Christ coincide with the pagan’s Sun-god of Winter Solstice (it the birth of the Sun and the Son) and then Easter coincide with the Spring Equinox for the re-birth of the sun or the resurrection of the son.
5. Lastly, do you have a Christmas tree up, where did this practice originate from?
The influences of Pagan Romans run rampant throughout Christianity, (goggle mithras).
Bob, Nancy, any one please respond. I wait in anticipation.
We don’t use Christmas trees at our house…
If you have actually read the whole Bible…I congratulate you! If you are trying to convince me…you are a few years too late…the Holy Spirit got here first! If you want me to convince you…That’s the job of the Holy Spirit…Keep reading the Bible, it’s a really Good Book!
The Good News IS…God wants reconciliation with man and has sent Jesus to make a way for that reconciliation…He really loves us!
Hal,
I’m not sure if you are Jewish or an Atheist or something else. I’m not sure if you are just trying to jar us or are truly wanting to hear our answers. I’m fine continuing the discussion however. Not knowing where you’re coming from makes it harder to know what your’re after or what you actually believe.
I want to take time to answer your questions and points here. I’ve already thought through each issue you bring up. Unfortunately I don’t have time to respond in detail right now and I have my in-laws over right now. Later tonight I should have time to respond, or else early next week.
Bob
Bob,
I’m certainly not an atheist, I study comparative religion, its scriptures, its origins, its influences, particularly the Abrahamic religions. I study the consistency of the respective scriptures internally and in comparison to the each other. All of the Abrahamic faith accept the Old Testament to a certain degree, but differ in respects to the others. I can totally understand changes in laws and prophets, given the progression of time, languages, and diverse communities within humanity. As far as a change in the nature or concept of God, after he painstakingly emphasized who he was and the punishment he laid out on the Jewish community, for following foreign concepts of God.
Judaism despite being under constant attack or the threat thereof from regional powers, their scripture was allowed to develop without much foreign influence. In fact the scripture could be considered tribal and anti-foreign due to the tendencies of the Jewish community.
Islam emerged in the midst of Persian vs Roman war, therefore the regional powers showed no concern for it. With that being case the Qur’an was developed without foreign influence.
However out of the three, Christianity’s New Testament, was made official by the same Pagan Empire, that occupied Jerusalem at the time of Jesus, destroyed the temple, persecuted and tortured Christians for sport and its influences are undeniable, which clearly troubles me. With this influence, we see a theme emerge, a flight away from all things Jewish, a marginalization of Jewish Christians and not all that ironically enough, a commonality with Rome’s Pagan establishment. This same establishment eventually oversaw the canonization of the New Testament and Christian traditions.
Imagine the Muslims, canonizing the Torah or Americans canonizing the Qur’an.
However in respects to the point I asked in the last post, it was strictly Biblical origin, not from the other respective faiths. I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
Nancy
I’m not trying to convince you of anything, perhaps I’m trying to convince myself of something, to see if there are explanations that counter the points made in the last post. In my experience all too often Christians can talk all day about the New Testament, however have nothing to offer when the conversation turns to its development or the differences in manuscripts. Or do you recommend that I close my eyes to the 500 lbs gorilla in the room and take comfort in the holy spirit, but then again what came first the canonized New Testament or its development.
Thank you
Hal,
I would indeed wish for you to take comfort in the Holy Spirit…as for the gorilla, maybe he can be seen in a different light when your eyes are open. I join with Bob in asking that the Lord will enlighten the eyes of your understanding.
I’m not sure if it is only the NT that you take exception with or all the scriptures. I’m sure you know that the OT was not written in chronological order. I believe Job is generally believed to be the oldest book in the OT. So the OT was formulated as well as the NT. As a Christian, I accept that all scripture is God breathed (penned by the hand of man under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit). As to the methods of man in formulating the order and which writings would be included…this also was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is co-equal with the other persons of the God-Head…Father, Son and Holy Ghost. God is totally sovereign over all His creation. This would include the time line required for the formulation of the entire Bible as well as the human instruments that actually did the compilation.
Bob, I am sure is a bit more scholastically able to present arguments in this area. What I am sure of…God loves us and He is able to provide every thing we need for life and godliness in the scriptures that have been compiled for us, accepted and canonized. These scriptures (both OT and NT) are a word picture of the person and character of Jesus Christ in whom dwells the fullness of the God-head. The elect of God from old were able to search the scriptures and join with Job in proclaiming, “I know my redeemer lives!†Father God, wise beyond mere human intellect placed each of us in the time frame of history and the geographical bounds and situations where we would be most likely to seek Him with all our heart and find Him.
Hal,
Thanks for responding, that helps me understand more of how to respond to you and lets me know where you’re coming from in this.
I hope to have an answer to your 5 points up later tonight. I was at church all morning (and last night, for choir), and then I’m rushing off to a small group tonight.
Thanks,
God bless.
Bob
Hal,
Okay here’s a big comment replying to your previous posts. I’m reproducing a lot of your previous comments here, so we can follow the exchange better. My comments will be block quotes.
… not have I only studied the scripture old and new, I also studied the history surrounding the compilation, which is a matter of fact in which many Christians themselves admit and not a mere interpretation, my question is, have you. It explains the game changing 180 degree movement in the New Testament and in turn Christianity
This is the point when Christians turn off, I challenge you or anyone to consider this and even respond if it is incorrect, in any case I expect silence from you.
1. Have you studied anything about the first or second century Christians, who are the direct inheritors of Jesus, who themselves accepted Jesus but still lived as he did implementing the law of the Torah. The original Christians practices and beliefs differ so widely from contemporary Christianity, why is that?
2. Have you studied under who auspices, the nature of Jesus (as it was a hot debate within Christianity) were made official and the Bible was compiled and canonized. Give you a clue it was a Pagan emperor. Did you study about the many books they were rejected to be apart of the bible and the books that were accepted, as there were dozens upon dozens of Gospels and Books. Who distinguish what from what, give you a clue it was not the holy ghost?
3. Ever wonder why, Paul is considered the first Christians and has a status above the actual disciples and the pillars of the church, which he, himself was admittedly subordinate to. This gave the Roman legitimacy over those Jewish/law leaning original Christians. Ironically, enough it explains why the language of scripture then leaves it Semitic history and now becomes Greek
4. Along with the language, do you ever ask yourself why the Sabbath was change with no scriptural authorization, and it was changed to coincide with the Pagan day of worship, the “day of the sun†or Sunday. Or why Birthday of Christ coincide with the pagan’s Sun-god of Winter Solstice (it the birth of the Sun and the Son) and then Easter coincide with the Spring Equinox for the re-birth of the sun or the resurrection of the son.
5. Lastly, do you have a Christmas tree up, where did this practice originate from?
I can totally understand changes in laws and prophets, given the progression of time, languages, and diverse communities within humanity. As far as a change in the nature or concept of God, after he painstakingly emphasized who he was and the punishment he laid out on the Jewish community, for following foreign concepts of God.
Judaism despite being under constant attack or the threat thereof from regional powers, their scripture was allowed to develop without much foreign influence. In fact the scripture could be considered tribal and anti-foreign due to the tendencies of the Jewish community.
Islam emerged in the midst of Persian vs Roman war, therefore the regional powers showed no concern for it. With that being case the Qur’an was developed without foreign influence.
However out of the three, Christianity’s New Testament, was made official by the same Pagan Empire, that occupied Jerusalem at the time of Jesus, destroyed the temple, persecuted and tortured Christians for sport and its influences are undeniable, which clearly troubles me. With this influence, we see a theme emerge, a flight away from all things Jewish, a marginalization of Jewish Christians and not all that ironically enough, a commonality with Rome’s Pagan establishment. This same establishment eventually oversaw the canonization of the New Testament and Christian traditions.
Imagine the Muslims, canonizing the Torah or Americans canonizing the Qur’an.
I’m not trying to convince you of anything, perhaps I’m trying to convince myself of something, to see if there are explanations that counter the points made in the last post. In my experience all too often Christians can talk all day about the New Testament, however have nothing to offer when the conversation turns to its development or the differences in manuscripts. Or do you recommend that I close my eyes to the 500 lbs gorilla in the room and take comfort in the holy spirit, but then again what came first the canonized New Testament or its development.
Hey Bob, that’s nice that you sing in the choir at your church, praise the Lord. What part do you sing bass, baritone, or tenor?
BTW happy Christmastime to you and yours!
John,
I sing Tenor and love it.
Merry Christmas to you and yours as well!
I’m sorry for the delay, I work investigating child abuse and neglect and work with these children and I have been so busy and exhuasted as of late.
Listen, the way I learn is through analysis, examining the arguments .Emotionalism does not appeal to me, for me it is a cerebral process, that then disseminate to your heart. I read numerous retutation by christians but to date I have not received a good answer to these questions, but that has not stopped my search, partly the reason why I’m on your blog
Although, I may speak bluntly, it’s not my intent to be belligerent or disrespful, if you percieve me as such, my apopologies.
You said,
“so no one lived like Jesus did anymore. No more trips to the Temple, no more animal sacrifices, etc. There were Jewish Christians who may have still held on to some Jewish practices, in fact the New Testament which records the history of the church for us from around AD 33 to AD63, roughly, does mention an offshoot of Christianity, the Judaizersâ€
and
“The early Christians saw Jesus as fulfilling the types and pictures of the Old Testament. They referred to the Church as a spiritual Israel a new Israel. So even some of their Jewish sounding terms are describing the new reality of the New Testament Church.â€
Should we not live by the primacy of scripture and the actions of Jesus.
The question “what would Jesus do†is asked often but it seems no one cares about exactly “what Jesus did.â€
The is ample evidence within the scripture that shows how the Prophets and the Jews acted when the temple was initially destroyed and yet they did not jettison their laws and traditions and they even now attempt to live as they always traditionally have.
Also there is a more scriptural-based evidence to opposite your point that Jesus did not come to destroy the law and the prophets but to fulfill. What’s more Jesus lived his life in a manner consistent with these words. So how can a Christian-based argument “develop†opposite of Jesus’ own principle, which he himself stayed true and consistent to in words and deeds.
With that being case Christianity is more likely to be the off-shoot. There is no such word called Christianity in either testaments, nor did Jesus advocate leaving the “ritualism†of tradition, he merely added the proper context of the law by emphasizing the “spirit†of the law and not just merely the letter of it, in which the Jew emphasized , hence fulfilling the law.
This is the fundamental point of why his direct inheritors and knowers of the first two generation lived a life which mirrored the obedience to the law, and obedience to Jesus. This was the standard. It’s only after that that new “gentile-based†message began being disseminated to appeal to imperialistic Romans. The Romans did as imperialist do, usurped the message and of course made it favor them. Hence the language of scripture turns to Greek, the Christians become known as Roman Catholic, A holy land emerged in Europe, Sabbath is changed etc.etc.etc. This is why, what Jesus actually did is marginalized as was his direct inheritors and contemporary principles of Christianity are not expounded on by Jesus but were developed post Jesus by Paul. Paul’s European leaning is undeniable.
You said,
“But the councils did not create out of nothing new doctrines. They helped sanction the fine tuning process of what doctrines were really taught by Scripture. No Christian today should point back to such and such council for why he believes what he does about Christ. He points to the Scripture behind the council.â€
and
“Medieval Roman Catholicism had come to a point where they viewed councils and papal bulls as of equal authority as Scripture. The Reformation in part was a fracture over authority. Protestants unite in affirming that Scripture alone is the final authority.â€
and
“And yes, Constantine a newly converted Christian called the Nicean council. But he did not have a vote, and ultimately the Scriptures won the day.â€
Again, you miss the most fundamental of all points. Listen to how profound this is. The nature of Jesus, the nature of God, trinity, and salvation, which governs the entire universe was relegated to a “DEMOCRATIC PROCESSâ€, which in itself is a great evidence that the church fathers, who compiled and canonized Christian dogma and the bible, themselves were not completely clear on the nature of Jesus, God, trinity and salvation. It is only after Nicea the doctrine of the trinity was declared to be an essential part of Christian belief, over three centuries after Jesus despite having the same scriptural evidence you have today, whereas Christians today act as if it is pristine clear no brainer but that position is based on the historic democratic process of not Jesus or the disciples but of Nicea. So the question of how clear was the scripture, in regards to these basic and fundemental issue is valid
I’m sure you will continue to marginalize this historic event. Within every religions there is debate about dogma but only in Christianity was debate extended to the most fundamental question of the nature of God, which in itself should be pristine clearfrom the jumping point. Imagine Jews or Muslims voting on the nature of God for them this would be utterly ridiculous because their scripture have clearly and adamantly laid that fundamental principle out and throughout.
You said,
• The New Testament as we have it supports Paul’s claims of how Gentile Christians should behave in respect to the law. Peter affirms Paul’s apostleship and accepts his letters. (2 Pet. 3:16). John in his writings as well as Peter affirm that the Gentile believers are part of the church which can be referred to by Jewish titles. The Church is the new Israel.
Semitic languages were left because Greek was the trade language of the day. The New Testament was not written in Latin (the Roman language). If inspiration is true, then a God who wanted to take it to the next level, so to speak with the revelation of Christ as now to emphasize the inclusion of Gentiles, if God wanted this to happen and wanted to reveal these things in books, why wouldn’t He use Greek?
It of course is not a complete surprise a book besides the first four books of the new testament affirms Paul. However, Jesus said in Matthew 7:
15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24″Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.
And Matthew 10:
24″A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. 25It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master.
As a matter of clarity, who is the teacher and who is the student and who is imitating the teacher. Jesus direct inheritors and knowers imitated Jesus, whereas Paul taught and expounded on concepts never taught by the teacher or the original disciples.
These prophesies are amazing and speaks to the point, of false prophets who would act like one thing but are really another. When Jesus say “’Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles†of course he not talking about anyone outside of the Christian faith, so this is a description of an internal issue amongst or about Christians and look at his response. So to which Christians is he referring those, who imitate the teacher or imitate a student, for those issues of “prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles†are the amazingly hallmarks of contemporary Christianity NOT the first two generations of Christianity.
This is why the most basic and fundamental questions of the nature of Christ, God, Trinity, and Salvation became a democratic process of vote and debate, even though they had the same evidence we have today, simply because it is “like a foolish man who built his house on sandâ€. It is why there is a huge debate between the Jesus of History and the Jesus of Faith.
For the record Greek was the language of trade before Jesus arrival and after, but Jesus did not speak it, nor advocated the learning the language of the occupiers or the “dogs†as he referred to them.
I see the reason for the debate about the Jesus of Faith and the Jesus of History. I tried to digest your rationale as to the moving of the Sabbath, but with all due respect, you point is really weak. No matter if it Saturn-day, Sun-day, Moon-day, or any of the Greek inspired days of the week, you marginalize and conveniently ignore scripture and the actions of Jesus.
1st. there is scriptural evidence, an actual injunction or better yet a COMMANDMENT, as to when the Sabbath is and an injunction to keep it Holy, no where in the bible is there a scriptural authorization, recommendation or suggestion to change the Sabbath irrespective of what day you choose, especially if you’re using the Greek days of the week, which in itself conforms to pagan origins.
2.There is the implication in respect to the anti-Christ changing the days and the times.
3.JESUS, himself celebrated the Sabbath day sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
I don’t know what you think, but this here seems to be iron clad arguments as to keeping the actual Sabbath day, but rather than doing what Jesus did, the choice is to conform with what the pagans did. As far the sun worshippers, their kind was not limited to Europe and their practices and holiday were not only wide spread and well known but it pre-dates Jesus. This is an extremely easy point to prove so I won’t even bother.
You said;
“Nothing in Scripture forbids a tree. And putting one up does not make me worship a pagan deity. There’s an incredible amount of freedom in Christianity. This is not a cold dead religion of endless rules and regulations.â€
I say Jeremiah 10:
1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:
“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter
Hal,
You continue to attempt to drive a wedge between Jesus and Paul.
You say it wasn’t until the 2nd or 3rd Centuries before Greek leaning Christianity developed. Clement of Rome wrote letters to the Corinthians in 100 AD. The epistles of Paul were written before that time as he quotes and alludes to them. Furthermore there are disciples of John (I’m thinking Papias and Ireneaus) who ministered in the early 2nd Century. They learned the Christian message from John who learned it from Christ. If this was a radically different message than Jesus’ teaching, then John himself would have written against Paul and his like. But Ireneaus and Papias affirm Paul’s teaching.
You intimate that the Trinity was invented at Nicea. Jesus himself claimed to be equal with God over and over again thorughout the Gospel of John as well as in the Synoptics. He received worship unlike what anyone before had ever done. His signs were unprecedented and unmatched.
Luke wrote his Gospel as well as Acts. Same author, same message. Yet Acts makes much of Paul and his ministry.
Jesus himself turned the tables on the previous Jewish isolation from the Gentile world by sending his followers out after his resurrection to spread the gospel of the kingdom to all the Gentile nations. He commissioned them to take the gospel to the corners of the known world.
When Jesus died, the veil of the temple dividing the holy place from the most holy, was miraculously ripped in two. Symbolically God is saying the Temple worship is fulfilled now, no more need of this ritualism, the real sacrifice has been received.
Jesus himself said his death would inaugurate a new covenant. Jesus also taught that He would send the Spirit who would guide his church into all truth, and he also foretold the writing of Scriptures by saying the Spirit will bring all things into remembrance.
Scholars hold that the very Gospels themselves were written for Gentile audiences, with the exception of Matthew. Mark for Romans, Luke for Greeks, and John to a wide audience.
Not only is the wedge between Jesus and Paul unwarranted, the era Paul helped launch was also foretold in the OT Scriptures. James a leader in the church, at the Jerusalem council recorded in Acts 15 quotes from Amos to explain what is happening with the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church in James’ day. The Gentiles play a prominent role in eschatological prophecies.
Hal, there are better resources than my blog out there on these questions. This is a common ploy of the modern atheists to try to separate church history as if Paul wasn’t accepted by the first disciples of Jesus, known by them, and respected by them. I accept the New Testament Scriptures as authoritative based on the Spirit’s voice in them, their internal weight and their having been accepted by the Church down through the centuries.
Thanks for responding again,
God bless you through Jesus Christ,
Bob Hayton
Oh and that last little bit you quoted from Jeremiah about Christmas trees is not about Christmas trees. It is about the creation of idols. The tree in today’s society is not used as an idol, but rather a decoration.
Some Christians avoid trees for these reasons that you give, but most of them use them as a harmless decoration.
Hal,
While we don’t put up a Christmas tree at our house…I agree with Bob on this point. As long as we are keeping Christmas centered on Jesus and are celebrating His advent into the world…The Chrismas tree is merely a decoration…We are free as Christians to make personal choices on how we choose to celebrate or not celebrate “Holidays”. As far as the pagans nabbing the day first…Well there have been pagans for a long time and I’m sure they nabbed a lot of days first but, we can share the days as well…*; )
I think part of the problem, is you only consider the religious narrative, while ignoring the historical narrative of Rome, who are inarguably, the biggest IMPERIALIST of human history. They even incorporated themselves as Egyptian Pharaohs and Queens, took over the word, who was not Hellenistic whether they wanted to be or not. Now these are the same IMPERIALIST, that controlled the atmosphere and climate of the canonization of the bible, and decided which books would be accepted, which would be rejected and which would be burned. Would there be any doubt they would have somehow come out top or become legitimized and unironically enough become the STANDARD BEARERS of the message, and the original receivers, inheritors and knowers of the message namely the Jewish Christians had to be marginalized because they would never accept the supremacy of Rome on such matters, nor what came with that supremacy, namely the changing of the message, concepts, Sabbath, and language, etc. etc. etc. You act as it was just a friendly exchange of power between two co-equals, never mind that Rome occupied the Holy Land and destroyed the temple. Do you think by accident, the Roman Catholics came out on top.
Paul of Tarsus is a means to an end. Ironically Paul position is parallel to the Romans. Once ardent enemy and persecutor of the Christians or Jewish Christians, now somehow become the first Christian and its unequal champion, despite being a subordinate.
Bob the presumed split between Jesus and Paul is not merely the work of atheists but a reading of the bible, and different teaching of who Jesus was and different gospel for example:
2 Corinthians 11:3-6
3But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.” 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
Galatians 1:6-9
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
2 Corinthians 11
5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those “super-apostles.”
Bob, it’s clear that Paul is not just merely going to these people, who never heard of the Christ or his gospel, instead, these people have heard of Christ and the gospel, however and rather obviously they did not reject Jesus but were given a totally different take on it. Now the big question is, what was that gospel and who preached it. Now, the obvious answer is the actual disciples that have actually seen Jesus and learned from Jesus, who just so happen to be Jewish Christians. From the text Paul never challenged their authority or the fallacies contained in their gospel. Within the New Testament, Paul acknowledges the actual pillars of the church as James, Peter, and John and his obvious inferiority complex to these pillars, to the extent in order to marginalize their superiority, he goes to the extent of saying even if an angel from heaven preached another gospel let him be eternally condemned. The people preaching this different Jesus or different gospel are obviously not lightweights, nobodies. Perhaps Paul did make an amazing argument against this different gospel, but perhaps it was the letter he mentioned in 1 Cor 5:9, which the holy ghost chose not to preserve or maybe it was burned at Nicea, no one knows.
It is UNDEBATABLE, that at this very early period in Christian history, there were already disputes about the nature of Jesus. From the outset, even when there were disciples and Jesus’ own brother no less. However, in contemporary times, Christians don’t care about that, don’t question it, why because the Nicea and the Roman Catholics settled it for them a long time ago. Christianity made easy.
As far as Jewish isolation that Jesus supposedly did away with. Did historical Jesus or in his biography did he go onto the Gentile and preach, he himself stated, acknowledged and followed his words by being “only sent to the lost sheep of Israel†This is where the Jesus of Faith, conveniently after his death gives the commission. However it seems that original disciples were isolationist in nature, until Paul changed all that.
As far as Jeremiah 10, it’s not merely idols, as the text states their ways (plural) as well. It was typical with sun-worshipper or pagan to be involved with horoscopes or astrology, “signs in the sky: are not necessarily the creations of idols. It’s far more deeper than you intimate. A close reading or better understanding of the text shows that these ways of the heathen are vast from the heavens (sky) to the earth (trees). It is just supremely ironic that the very example that was given centuries ago is applicable to a Christian today, it’s prophetic. Also sorry to point this out, the quote also mentions the decorative aspect of it, “They adorn it with silver and goldâ€
Nancy,
My only concern is how feasible to worship God thru a Pagan means, or what millions of children around the word intentionally bow in front of the tree to get to and open their toys. Or why is this spiritual holiday is actually the most materialistic holiday in human history. It takes away from Jesus on multiple levels.
Really, I get although you are Protestant and you can speak of the fallacies and corruption of the Catholic church, and some even calling it the anti-Christ, but you can only go so far because so much of what you believe comes from foundations they laid many centuries ago, no matter how corrupted you may find their teaching are today, which in my opinion has gone too far incorporating idolatry, infallible man who words are equal with God, saint-worship etc.. etc.. Paul was the single most important factor for the Roman Catholic because it legitimized them and solidified their position, this is why he dominates the bible, despite being a subordinate.
Hal,
The things you are bringing up are external…As Christians, we have something no other religion has…God with us…God in us…The very same God that raised Jesus from the dead…The Good News is that God wanted contact with man so much…For God SO loved the world…He sent His only begotten Son, Jesus, to die on the cross to pay for our sin so He could commune with us. God Is Holy and cannot look upon sinful man..Jesus came and removed the sin of the world…So where did he take it or send it, if we still see it all around us??? He took it out of Gods sight…Now God sees us through the Blood of Jesus…Through rose colored glasses so to speak…Now God can commune with us. The veil of separation was rent top to bottom… It was far to high and far to heavy for man to rent…When the barrier of sin was removed…God could reach to us…and sent His Holy Spirit to not be only with us but to actually take up residence in us…We will always see things through spiritual eyes…not just through the external…SO, in a way as long as you have not received the Holy Spirit and salvation through faith in Jesus…We can never see eye to eye…That is why Bob and I stand in agreement in asking Father God to open the eyes of your understanding and draw you to Jesus….Blessings
Hal,
You can continue to believe what you want obviously. But in Acts 15 we have the pillars of the church, James brother of Jesus and Peter agreeing with Paul and his gospel and condemning the Judaizer’s insistence that Gentiles be circumcised. They said that this Jewish centric gospel was not coming under their authority it was not something they authorized. That is the false gospel Paul is against.
As far as the Romans burning scriptures, they burned all scriptures, canonical ones as well, in the centuries before Nicea. That is plain from history. What’s surprising is that the global empire of Rome, who killed both Peter and Paul in Rome in the Ad 60s, who launched ten seasons of fierce persecution against both Jews and Christians, especially Christians, that they would eventually turn about face and embrace Christianity.
Nero used Christians as lanterns to light up his gardens at night. Also you seem to ignore that some of the epistles that are most radically pro-Gentile were written not by Paul. Peter in the epistles of Peter, is writing to Gentiles in Asia Minor and uses explicitly Jewish titles to refer to them. The author of the Epistle of Hebrews has the most radical message of Christ being superior to everything Jewish, and it was not written by Paul.
My guess is you are trying to separate Christianity from Christ to say it is a later development that contradicts true Judaism. This desire in you does not come out of a burden to advance Judaism, because you see Old Testament Judaistic laws as often inhumane. It stems from a desire to explain rationally the development of religions in such a way as to make yourself assured that none of them really come from The One God, they are all human inventions and thus your own religion of your own private making is legitimized.
The truth is the growth of Christianity and its spread had everything against it. The Jews persecuted it even as they rejected Jesus. The Romans tried to use all their might to silence it. The Greeks scoffed at it, and the founders of the religion were the least prepared and most unlikely to launch a world-wide religion. Yet the religion spread like wildfire until even world powers bended in its wake. The unified Christian Scriptures best explain this as they give a totally amazing message of a gospel of grace and they exalt a Savior who suffers on behalf of his people to save them from sin and provide an eternal salvation. This is glorious good news and is why this message is one people of all eras have been willing to die for. Not only is this message wonderful, it is a culmination of the message of the Old Testament and it fills out and explains where the Old Testament was pointing all along. It is a gloriously consistent and wonderfully rich body of truths. It glorifies not man, but God, and it is He for whom we ultimately come for a reason for the spread and influence of this world religion.
I pray you come to see the truth, Hal. Rather than trying to erect whatever excuses you can to avoid facing the truth of the claims of Jesus Christ.
Blessing to you,
Bob Hayton
As far as world religion goes, yes Judaism is pretty much the same tribal religion it has always been and is far from a world religion and is defunct.
I’m not trying to advance anything, just seeking the truth. I’m merely studying the three Abrahamic faiths from theological and historical perspective without the blinders on, as many of the adherents of these faiths do. I don’t think faith have to be blind. It allows you the freedom not to turn a blind eye and hold on to obvious inconsistencies and stay loyal to God only. For example:
You see the way you attempted to defend the changing of the Sabbath, though we are COMMANDED to keep it holy in scripture and Jesus himself observed it sun-down Friday and yet rather than siding with God you defend a rationalization that has nothing to do with God but the deviated corrupted traditions of men, which not even Paul advocated. Instead you side with a commonality with Heathen-traditions. Despite the implications which the book of revelation lays out of the anti-christ changing of days and times and now the names of days literally originate from Greek Gods, by the Christians themselves. The Christmas tree an obvious pagan inspired innovation in which we are constantly reminded not to follow the ways of the heathens, and yet we incorporate it, in the most religious holiday of the year. Not even Paul advocated this, so again rather than siding with God you side with the corrupted traditions of men, who sought a commonality with Heathen traditions.
What makes a sincerely religious person turn a blind eye to this? What makes a man forsake his obedience to God for blind following of corrupted traditions of men, which undermines the command of God. Sure you can marginalize it, because your saved or times changes and its minor in the ultimate scheme of things but that’s how all people who deviate from a course rationalize their change.
However, the biggest question is, was these deviations and corruption isolated to that, especially in light of the evolving and changing concept of God and salvation, even though God remained perfectly consistent from the beginning.
In my studies of Islam, they have a principle of tracing every religious action to either the Qur’an or the living example of their prophet Muhammad, and any addition is an innovation and every innovation is a deviation and every deviation leads to hell fire. This is designed to keep corrupted traditions of men being established, despite this basic principle Muslims too find their way to establish corrupted traditions of men.
So for the record, God is Great and his system is perfect, however when its understanding and implementation is left to imperfect men, you see the corruption that contaminate all religions
I appreciate all the time you shown to me but lets chalk it up to irreconciliable differences. Thanks Bob and Nancy.
I will only worship one God, and follow the living example of his prophets. However, I will admit that thus far the Qur’an has had the biggest impression on me, as it views Jesus in a similar light that the Jewish Christians did and Salvation is through belief & works. It does not isolate the message to a strip of land or a dot on the globe as Judaism paints nor oblige you to believe that at one time as is the case in Christianity, to the contrary it states he send prophets through the world, which makes more sense but did acknowledge a preference for the Children of Israel by sendng them successive prophets, but my studies are at a very early stage.
Hal,
It’s been a pleasure interacting with you. I understand that this has to come to an end however.
On the Sabbath question there are several passages in the New Testament which teach the Gentile Christians are not to be judged in respect to sabbaths (Gal. 4, Col. 2). Hebrews 4 teaches that the Sabbath was a rest, and it pictured the ultimate rest from our spiritual labors as we trust Christ to provide eternal rest for us. It is thus a picture of heavenly things.
In the Old Testament, the Sabbath was specifically a sign for the Jewish people. It was not observed before Moses’ time.
Judaism and Islam both advocate a religion of faith + works. IN effect it is a code for how one lives his life which in some way merits ultimate favor with God. Protestant Christianity sees faith as key. From faith flow love and good works. The love and good works testify that the faith is genuine, but they are not the grounds of acceptance with God. Jesus work on the cross is, which includes us on the basis of our faith. We don’t work, work, work, and try to keep believing our faith. Instead we believe the glorious good news of the Gospel and we rest from our labors. We then live lives pleasing to God from our hearts, not under compulsion but willingly because we’ve been changed so radically by the gospel of God’s free grace in Jesus Christ.
I pray God reveals to you more clearly the gospel of His glorious Son Jesus Christ, and that you will be drawn to Him and receive eternal satisfaction from the Blessed One.
In Christ,
Bob Hayton
Hal…
As your studies continue…here is a scripture to consider…as it relates to the promise of the Holy Spirit with in us…
Jeremiah 31:32-34 (King James Version)
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more
Interesting discussion. Hal, You are correct modern Christianity got it too easy. The doctrine states “Once you believe in The Lord, you will be in heaven”. Nothing can be further from The Truth. Salvation is in Yahshua, who removed the death certificate – the penalty for braking The Law. For instance, The braking of Ten Commandments was punishable by stoning to death. Yashua removed the penalty. He also removed sacrificial ordinances and ceremonies which were performed to atone for sins and which were associated with Sabbaths, feasts, new moons of which Paul is speaking in infamous Colossians 2:16. Modern Christianity fails to read the passage as whole, this context gets misunderstood. In verse 12 Paul speaks about blotted out Handwritten ordinances that Yahshua removed, not Sabbaths, feasts, new
moons. In other words, Yashua blotted out those with His Own blood, yet perpetual throughout your generations as Yahweh declares feasts and Sabbaths remain to be observed. Paul simply tells people of Colosse “Not let anyone judge them for adhering to the observance of Holy Days and Sabbath, but also not to bring offerings drink and meat to Yahweh as those were removed by Our Savior. Sabbath indeed has been replaced by Sun Day against Yahweh’s will and is consistently been braking by millions of disobedient Christians. In fact, Sabbath has nothing to do with Saturday, that has been named after the planet Saturn. Moreover in more than dozen Slavic languages Sabbath is exactly that 7th day of the week. In Russian language Saturday is Subbota which means 7th day of the week. Roman Catholic church had the audacity to change Yah’s Word whichever way they wanted. Consider researching Council of Laodaciea canon 29 outlaws Sabbath and Christians are forbidden to judize and are declared anathema to Christ if they do. For nearly 400 after Yashua’s ascension to heaven nobody told them that Sabbath is no more? Sabbath has been set apart and sanctified by Yahweh Himself at the creation. That means it has a meaning and purpose to our Loving Father. Sabbath was made for man. Yashua is The Lord of it. Lord’s Day has nothing whatsoever to do with Sabbath or Sunday- The first Day of the week. It is mentioned only once in the whole entire Bible by John and referred to upcoming Millennial rain of Messiah. It is never used in regards to Sunday, ever!
Sabbath is the heart of Ten Commandments which Christians conveniently removed as done away. Yashua did not come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill – to make it complete. He also said that until heaven and earth will pass away not one letter of The Law will pass away. Are heaven and earth gone? I don’t think so. Also, when He discloses to his disciples 2 greatest commandments – One to love our Creator with all Soul, heart, strength and mind, Second – Love thy neighbor as Ourselves, He then says “On these two hang ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS”. Yashua would not even dare to change Father’s Law! Torah stands forever and Yahweh does not change. Yashua perfected The Law by removing unnecessary sacrificial ordinances and ceremonies, the penalty of death. That is it! Everything else remains. Of course, Levitical priesthood does not exist and The Temple has been destroyed and the ordinances and laws associated with Levitical priesthood are no longer. Yashua did not come to abolish The Law, period!
Modern Christians observe Pagan religions based Holidays. Christmas is not biblical and was never commanded to be observed neither by Yahweh nor by Yahshua. Moreover, Yashua was not born December 25th. He was not even born in December! Nowhere in The whole entire Bible does it say Yashua was born December 25th or that disciples or early Christians observed Christmas. Easter is another pagan holiday. Only KJV improperly renders Passover as Easter in the book of acts. No other version uses word Easter. The name is not even biblical! Not only that but The Last Supper has not been properly observed and Passover has been replaced by The Last Supper. Passover is to be perpetually observed, forever. True Yashua became our Passover Lamb, however Passover is also a memorial of Israelites Exodus from Egypt and is to be observed in that regard. We keep the Passover to remember what Yahweh did for His children as well as we commemorate Yashua’s Death that is coincided with The Sacrifice of Passover Lambs in remembrance of what He has done for us. Ask any Christian how Yashua commanded us to observe IT and I guarantee you most will have trouble to even name the rituals Yashua performed to teach us humility.
Easter has nothing to with Yashua’s resurrection, which is FirstFruits that is celebrated Nissan 16-17th. Yashua resurrected at the end of regular Sabbath. When women came to sepulcher to balm the body Yashua was already gone. And even if He did resurrect on Sunday it was not at the rising sun as many wrongly assume. An honest reader who reads his/her Bible carefully will see that women came before the risen sun, Yashua was gone!
For those who claim Christmas tree is ok to have in the house;
Jeremiah 10:1-10;
This is what the LORD says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.” 6 No one is like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is mighty in power. 7 Who should not revere you, O King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you. 8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols. 9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple– all made by skilled workers. 10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
Christams is nothing less than disguised birth celebration of Roman god Mithras who many historians believed to be born on December 25th. It is ridiculous to make it “OK” to celebrate holidays that are not sanctioned by our Creator, provoking Him to anger.
Hal, from pagan Christmas, Easter to grekoroman philosophy based doctrines of Hell as neverending conscious torture place that last forever and ever to Immortal soul doctrine, to Trinity doctrine, To Yashua being Yahweh to tithings doctrines – virtually everything modern Christians practice and preach today is contrary to Yahweh’s eceralsing word. Pagan religions based Holidays replaced Holy Days. You see, modern Christians are convinced Yahweh’s feasts are for Jews only, Ten commandments are ok to temper with, disobedience is welcomed because grace is abused and justify our transgressions against Yahweh. Unclean foods are ok to eat and justified by few “hard to understand verses” whichhave been used and abused, misunderstood, taken out of context to justify ungodly behavior. Nevermind Yahweh demands obedience, most Christians have no idea who Yahweh is as never seek Him, waving NT in front people’s faces disregarding Torah completely. Yashua said that in order to see Yahweh we must know Him, but we don’t care who Yashua is and how he lived his life. Yashua has been given to us so we could learn to live holy, rightious life. He lived Torah, he breathed Torah, He obeyed Father to the tee and because he was Human, although with divine nature He had emotions, feelings, bodily functions as we do, He had will, He could choose, He was tempted, but He always obeyed Father, thus He was an example of How one mist live His/Her life, which majority of modern Christians have been brainwashed to believe it is hard to achive and it is ok, we under grace now. Yes, we are under Grace and it is a wonderful beautiful thing. We won’t be held against our transgressions, However we are not excused from obeying Yahweh’s Law. If we love Him, we keep His commands, not out of fear, but out of Pure unadulterated Love for Our Maker, out of genuine desire to do His Will. Modern Christianity got it all twisted making up their own rules, they own traditions, their OWN doctrines and interpretations, nullifying Yahweh’s Word, completely ignoring His Holy Days that teach us about Our Future, that teach us about Our Savior. It is a shame, it is very said. There is no meaning, no purpose, but complete misunderstanding about Yahweh’s plan for mankind and simplified pagan beliefs.
By the way, the immediate separation of The Soul from the body upon death is another myth invented to allure masses into decaying modern Chrostoanity. Ruah is Hebrew for Loving Soul, it is also used in reference to animals. Yah breathed Ruah into Adam’s nostrils. As body, so and soul diesat death, however Spirit that we have received upon obtaining second life in Messiah goes back to Father. Holy Spirit is out. body and soul die awaiting resurrection.
Hal, Please do not believe modern christianity’s lies! You are on the right direction. Seek Yahweh daily on the pages of His Word. The Holy Spirit will lead you to His amazing Truths. The simplicity in Messiah is unprecedented and is understood by those who want to know Him. Yahwheh is not God of confusion and His Law is not grevious. Seek Yahweh. Read daily. Only The Bible can give you ALL the answers. No human reasoning will explain away things. May
The Holy Spirit touch you and help you seek Father through life and the teachings of Our Lord and Savior Yahshua 🙂