There is an interesting discussion on alcohol going on over at Bob Bixby’s blog, Pensees. It has been mentioned over on Sharper Iron, as well.
I have been meaning to post for some time on this topic, and now seemed like the appropriate time. Some of my research for this article was helped by a cousin-in-law of mine, Nathan Grant. I plan to post an edited version of his own study on this topic in the future.
Okay, you will probably want to go over and read Bixby’s article on the issue, “Drinking Beer and My Right to Read the Bible in The Middle of the Street”, first. Then you can read my response verbatim below.
I hate to post another long comment, but… I think this should be said, in the context of this discussion.Why drink wine?? Good question! I respect your arguments from common sense and Biblical principles. These are not light-weight arguments. Yet I think there is a big Scriptural argument for the use of wine that you are overlooking.Before presenting that argument, let me hasten to say that I can only imagine the sorrow liquor has caused many people and many families. Drunkenness is a sin which Scripture strongly condemns and warns us against. And more than many sins, it can affect innocent bystanders, and unfortunate family members. It should be no laughing matter for such an argument to be raised. The injury and harm alcohol has caused so many deserves no scorn from the eyes of young fundamentalists eager to partake in another activity they deem permissible from Scripture.If I agree so much with your argument, why then would I go on and seek to argue for the use of alcohol? Why not just stay quiet, and agree to disagree privately? I cannot remain quiet, because truthfully I feel the argument I have to present is of such a nature that to disregard it would be to despise God and His Word.
Ps. 104:14-15 presents my argument: “You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.” Here the Psalmist praises God for the gift of wine. And he declares that God gave us wine to gladden our hearts. My argument is that Scripture abundantly declares this truth: God gave us wine to bring us joy. I want to present 8 points which combine to make this truth extremely clear. God gave us wine for our joy. [Scriptures are taken from the ESV, unless otherwise indicated.]
1) Wine is a gift of the goodness of God.
Jeremiah 31:12-14 “They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. Then shall the young women rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy; I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, declares the LORD.”
See also Ps. 104:14-15 above. 1 Tim. 4:1-5 applies also, I believe.
2) Wine produces joy–it “gladdens the heart”.
Judges 9:13 “But the vine said to them, ‘Shall I leave my wine that cheers God and men and go hold sway over the trees?’”
Ecclesiastes 10:19 (NASB) “Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything.”
Zechariah 10:7 “Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior, and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad; their hearts shall rejoice in the LORD.”
It should be clear that even the intoxicating nature of wine is being praised, here. Wine lifts the spirit and gladdens the heart long before it actually overtakes you and makes one drunk. Wine can be enjoyed and its effects relished without losing control and becoming drunken. Prov. 31:6-7 encourages Lemuel to give wine and strong drink to the sick and the sorrowful of heart. And Jer. 16:7-8 points to a practice of comforting those who are mourning over the death of loved ones with wine and a feast–”the cup of consolation”. Rabbinical literature declares that such was a common practice–particularly in obedience to Prov. 31:6-7.
3) Wine is used in rejoicing before God.
It is also used in offerings and must be tithed on.
Deuteronomy 14:22-26 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses and spend the money for whatever you desire–oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.”
Isaiah 62:8-9 “The LORD has sworn by his right hand and by his mighty arm: ‘I will not again give your grain to be food for your enemies, and foreigners shall not drink your wine for which you have labored; but those who garner it shall eat it and praise the LORD, and those who gather it shall drink it in the courts of my sanctuary.’”
Deuteronomy 12:17-19 “You may not eat within your towns the tithe of your grain or of your wine or of your oil…but you shall eat them before the LORD your God in the place that the LORD your God will choose….”
Notice that in the Dt. 14 passage above, even strong drink [everyone agrees that this is alcoholic] can be drunken before the Lord with rejoicing! Strong drink is also used as a drink offering in conjunction with certain sacrifices, see Num. 28:7. Wine, of course, is also used for drink offerings, see Ex. 29:40, Num. 15:5, 2 Chron. 31:5, Dt. 8:4.
4) Abundance of wine was a particular blessing from God.
Joel 2:24-26 “The threshing floors shall be full of grain; the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you. “You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, who has dealt wondrously with you. And my people shall never again be put to shame.”
Joel 3:18 “And in that day the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the streambeds of Judah shall flow with water; and a fountain shall come forth from the house of the LORD and water the Valley of Shittim.”
See also Gen. 27:28 (part of Isaac’s blessing for Jacob) and Dt. 7:13.
5) Having no wine was a hardship or a judgment of God.
Amos 5:11 “Therefore because you trample on the poor and you exact taxes of grain from him…you have planted pleasant vineyards, but you shall not drink their wine.”
Deuteronomy 29:2-6 “And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: ‘You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. I have led you forty years in the wilderness. Your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandals have not worn off your feet. You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or strong drink, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.’”
The above passage has Moses describing the glories of God that the people saw and also stressing that they had endured trials in the wilderness. He speaks of the miraculous provision for them, but also of God’s keeping them from the normal joys of life–eating bread and drinking wine and strong drink. God did all of this so they would know that He was their God, yet they had no spiritual circumcision of heart to appreciate that. The point I am drawing out is that not having wine and strong drink was a hardship, exactly parallel to not having bread. Bread is good, and so is wine and strong drink. (See also Dt. 28:39, Micah 6:15, and Zeph. 1:13)
6) The absence of wine results in the absence of joy.
No wine, no joy.
Isaiah 24:7-11 “The wine mourns, the vine languishes, all the merry-hearted sigh. The mirth of the tambourines is stilled, the noise of the jubilant has ceased, the mirth of the lyre is stilled. No more do they drink wine with singing; strong drink is bitter to those who drink it. The wasted city is broken down; every house is shut up so that none can enter. There is an outcry in the streets for lack of wine; all joy has grown dark; the gladness of the earth is banished.“
Jeremiah 48:33 “Gladness and joy have been taken away from the fruitful land of Moab; I have made the wine cease from the winepresses; no one treads them with shouts of joy; the shouting is not the shout of joy.”
See also Is. 16:10.
7) Drinking wine is singularly festive, joyful, and celebratory.
Ecclesiastes 9:7 “Go, eat your bread in joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.”
Isaiah 22:13 “And behold, joy and gladness, killing oxen and slaughtering sheep, eating flesh and drinking wine. ‘Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.’”
It goes without saying that wine is associated with times of joy and feasting (Job 1:13, Esther 1, 1 Chron. 12:39ff., Gen. 27:25 [a special occasion--the passing on of the blessing]). The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (ISBE) [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1988; edited by Geoffrey Bromiley] points out, “A banquet hall is called a bet misteh hayyayin (lit. ‘house for drinking wine’ Est. 7:8), and a ‘feast’ is literally a ‘drinking’ (Heb. misteh, Gen. 21:8; Jdg. 14:10; 1 S. 25:36; 2 S. 3:20)” (vol. 4, pg. 1070). Further it states, “wine…was an essential part of feasting in the biblical tradition” (pg. 1071).
(Another point, similar to this is that the joys of sexual intimacy and love are compared to the joy produced by wine. See Song of Solomon 1:2-3; 4:10; 7:1-2, 9; 8:2.)
8) Wine will be part of the future feasting in Christ’s kingdom.
Isaiah 25:6-9 “On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined. And he will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken. It will be said on that day, ‘Behold, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the LORD; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation.’”
Jeremiah 31:12-14 “They shall come and sing aloud on the height of Zion, and they shall be radiant over the goodness of the LORD, over the grain, the wine, and the oil, and over the young of the flock and the herd; their life shall be like a watered garden, and they shall languish no more. Then shall the young women rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old shall be merry. I will turn their mourning into joy; I will comfort them, and give them gladness for sorrow. I will feast the soul of the priests with abundance, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, declares the LORD.”
Matt. 26:29 “I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
See also Lk. 22:28-30, Mt. 8:11, and Lk. 13:29. It is worthwhile to mention here that from the above verse, it is clear Jesus drank wine. The celebration of the Passover had developed into including 4 cups of wine. From the passage in Luke you see they drank at least two cups of wine (Lk. 22:17 and 20). In Lk. 7:33-34 Jesus himself says that he came “eating and drinking”. Since John the Baptist was specifically said to have abstained from alcoholic drinks (Lk. 1:15), and since Jesus contrasts himself with John in this text, Jesus is saying he came drinking alcoholic drinks. While it is obvious Jesus was no drunkard, the charge of “drunkard” would sound ridiculous if Jesus had been a tee-totaller. Not only did Jesus drink wine, but he was concerned to produce the best kind of wine for those at the wedding feast in Cana (Jn. 2).
Also, the feast of the Lord’s supper looks forward to the feast with Jesus in His kingdom (see the Mt. 26:29 passage above). And it is clear from 1 Cor. 11:21 that the beverage used at the Lord’s table in Corinth could make some drunk. Paul in no way castigates them for using the wrong kind of beverage. He even points out that they could drink in their own houses (v. 22). So it makes Biblical sense to expect that the feast in Christ’s glorious New Kingdom will include alcoholic drinks.
Now I have presented my Biblical argument–that God has given us wine to make our hearts glad. So I say we should glorify God by the wise use and enjoyment of his good gifts to us (see 1 Tim. 4:1-5).
Now some will be hanging onto a weak argument here. They will be trying to convince themselves that wine most often does not mean intoxicating juice of grapes, but rather non-intoxicating juice similar to the Welch’s variety. Yet much evidence exists that this is not correct. Modern grape juice was not really available until the late 1800s when Mr. Welch began marketing his variety. ISBE says, “Both yayin and tiros are fermented grape juice with alcoholic content; hence both are able to cause intoxication (cf. Hos. 4:11) and are to be distinguished from ‘must’ or unfermented grape juice….The ‘new wine’ (Gk. gleukos) of the Pentecost account (Acts 2:13) was the vintage of the recent harvest; the thrust of the taunt requires that it refer to wine that can cause intoxication.” (vol. 4 pg. 1069) The New Unger’s Bible Dictionary [Chicago: Moody Press, 1988; edited by Merrill F. Unger] states, “In most of the passages in the Bible where yayin is used (83 out of 138), it certainly means fermented grape juice; and in the remainder it may fairly be presumed to do so. The intoxicating character of yayin in general is plain from Scripture.” Now it is true that ancient wine was not as alcoholic as wine today. Yet it is also clear it could intoxicate. In NT times, wine was a common table beverage (diluted of course). Yet ISBE says, “Wine is not attested as the normal table beverage of OT times. It seems generally to have been reserved for special occasions…” (vol. 4 pg. 1070). More evidence could be cited, I am sure, but I agree with Unger that it is plain that wine was quite able to intoxicate. Yet God says this is good–it gladdens our hearts.
I have two further counter arguments. One counters the argument you (Bob Bixby) have brought up in this post. The other counters another common argument, which has been brought up in the comment thread. I will start with the latter argument.
Should we not refrain from alcohol and wine, strong drink, etc. out of deference to weaker brothers who might stumble? Is not this the point of Rom. 14:21? In a sense I would agree. But the context speaks to situations where you know a brother will be observing you drink in such a way that he may stumble and offend his conscience. If one happens to stumble upon me and find that I am drinking, I could charitably explain my reasoning for doing so. But for me to disregard his conscience and deliberately challenge him or cause him to be offended would be quite another thing. Applying 1 Thess. 5:22 to this case is a false application of that text. It refers to actual cases of evil–avoiding actual evil. Not avoiding what appears to be evil but in fact is neutral or not evil. And it also specifically in context refers to the judging of each prophecy in the setting of a church or Christian gathering.
My second counter argument deals with your argument concerning the great potential harm that alcohol can cause families and individuals. Yes, this is a strong caution and particularly listens to the warnings of Prov. 20:1 and other like passages. However, let me ask something. Is total abstinence the best preventative course for me to pursue with regard to the rearing of my children? Since Scripture does not forbid alcohol, and actually encourages its moderate consumption, how can I in good conscience teach against its use period? Would the argument you propose be received as sufficient from my children? Or could it not be as effective (or more) for me to model the moderate use of wine in front of my children and family? My children would learn by example that wine and liquor is not to be consumed frivolously, but rather to be enjoyed in moderation–always thanking God for the blessing of wine when we partake of it. This also seems to be more in line with being controlled by the Spirit in this dispensation of the new covenant, in my opinion.
Before closing, let me point your attention to two articles on this topic written by a friend of a friend of mine. Alcohol and the Christian, and Alcohol and the Christian Part Deux. In the second article there is an extended discussion which approaches the topic from many perspectives and seeks to apply Biblical principles to the decision whether or not to enjoy God’s gift of wine, this side of heaven. I think you (and your readers) may find the discussion beneficial in thinking through this issue.
UPDATE: Check out two later posts I did on this topic: “Will You Be Having Some Wine?” and “Welch’s Grape Juice, Worldly Wisdom and Wine”.
Great post, Bob! I also blog over at SharperIron, and the discussion about the use of alcohol as a beverage is a very touchy one. I hope that Greg Linscott will add your blog to the “Blogwatch” on SharperIron. That’ll be sure to swing some page views onto your blogsite.
P.S.– we have a similar background, where we both had done time with IFBX-KJVONLY types of churches. Praise God for abounding grace!
Larry,
Thanks for your kind comments. Actually I did make the Sharper Iron blogwatch not to long ago with regard to Phil Johnson’s critique on fundamentalism part 2.
Anyway, I have enjoyed Sharper Iron in the past, and am enjoying the discussion forums over there now too.
I agree this topic is a touchy one. But truth be told, I had no axe to grind with this issue. I had no real compulsions to want to drink alcohol. But for some time a verse here and a verse there would catch my attention. I read the posts linked to at the bottom of this post a few months back and became convinced. Ultimately my cousin-in-law pushed me over the edge.
But the real motivation to actually drink was to not despise God’s gift of wine. Seriously, I still have not purchased any liquor (it is expensive). But someone gave me some, and I have had a few drinks now. Nothing at all like being drunk, but I did experience “gladdening of heart”. In the future, I would like to enjoy wine. But right now, I am not so sure the budget can allow it.
Bob Hayton,
How sad it is to see that you went this far with things. I have been reading P. Brandenburg’s blogs and came across yours. All I can do is continue to pray.
Michael McNeilly,
I am glad you took the time to interact. You should know I maintain the highest respect for your father–he had a tremendous impact on me. He taught me to be earnest in my pursuit and stand for truth. As I mention in my story, I believe I applied that lesson and have followed God’s direction for this stage of my life.
I have no burning passion to convert you away from the circles of fundamentalism you enjoy. Yet I stand for truth. I assume you do as well. I encourage you to let the Bible truly be your sole authority for faith and practice. Follow truth more than you follow men and be willing to do what is hard for the sake of pleasing God.
I have not “arrived”, or anything. And I do not count myself to be the fountain of all knowledge. But as I have stated in my letter, coming to the positions I have now embraced was not easy–and it was not something I secretly plotted to do. I have lost friends and even alienated some of our family members in my desire to hold to the Bible according to my conscience.
One thing I have found, however, is that many of the people I once frowned upon from the other side of my strict fence are in fact humble sincere followers of the Bible and lovers of Jesus Christ. I believe my attitude toward them even more than my separation from them was wrong.
You say it is sad that I have come so low. I hope those words were spoken out of a broken heart that loves Christ and sincerely aches over those who have fallen. I fear that it would be too easy for someone to say those same words with a somewhat of a self-righteous snicker under their breath. I hope it does not lift you up to see me so low. If it does not lift you up, pray that you will always differ with brothers in Christ charitably and be thankful for the grace given you to remain in what you believe to be true.
I recognize that I am all too prone to such an attitude as well. I strive to depend on Christ’s power to live peaceably with all men.
The points of view I express on this blog are my own. And posts like this one are not made without thought. Seriously, I had no real desire to drink alcohol or break another of my fundamentalist taboos. For a time, I was convinced of the Scriptural case for drinking and yet was too timid to do it. I only knew that others might have that much lower of an opinion of me. But far better to risk that then to impugn the wisdom of God who gave us wine freely to enjoy!
I would be happy to open up a dialogue with you here or in email, if you prefer. I do my best to remain open to other points of view (even those I once held). I follow P. Brandenburg’s blog also. Many of his posts are thought provoking and some I agree with completely. I do not comment there as I feel I would not be welcome. If you hear anything that seems damaging in regard to my character from him, feel free to include me in the conversation too! I would like to present my point of view–just to be fair.
But my reputation is not all that valuable and worth protecting, really. I choose to identify with Christ where He leads me, come what may.
Whatever you think of me, and whether you ever write me again or no, I would encourage you to make the Main thing the main thing for you. Keep centered on the cross and on the Gospel of Christ Jesus. Focus your attention on Him, and seek to honor Him by worshipping and relishing His grace and glory all the more. And by inviting others to see and savor His splendor likewise.
In Christ,
Bob Hayton
“But my reputation is not all that valuable and worth protecting, really. I choose to identify with Christ where He leads me, come what may.”
Well said, Bob.
I too have been involved in some of these alcohol discussions, but I think it may very well be time for me to exit from them. Your comment that I quoted above is convicting to me.
To explain, I get rather heated in these discussions, and sometimes it is because I see the Word of God being taken lightly and it bothers me. However, I think at other times it is because I am trying to defend myself against those who say I am stupid or sinful because of the path I have chosen.
I usually try to start out by giving the Scriptural point of view, which is usually ignored, and then I get all bent out of shape. Too often though, I get bent out of shape not because Scripture is ignored, but because my argument is ignored (another argument entirely).
I appreciate your humility and Christlike spirit in these discussions. It is an example and rebuke to me.
Fitzage,
It is easy to say the words I said, and hard to practice it. I understand where you are coming from.
I think it is important to stand up for Scripture and present a positive view. But I think we need wisdom as to when to just leave discussions, realizing our point has been made but is not being heard.
I appreciate your posts over on your blog, and whenever I run across them somewhere else. Perhaps the best way for us to avoid the appearance of being an interconnected group of young ex-fundy punks is by continually reminding ourselves of the need to depend on Christ for strength, grace, and wisdom. To be “swift to hear, slow to speak…”.
I am thankful that God has so worked that I could become connected with you, your brother, and Nathan Pitchford. You all have been used in my work of growing in grace and sanctification. Thank you.
God Bless.
I wonder if you would be willing to clarify your position by answering a few follow-up questions:
1. Would it be wrong for a Christian to drink beer?
2. Would it be wrong for a Christian to drink other forms of liquor (e.g., scotch) – not to get drunk of course, just to “gladden the heart†?
3. Would it be wrong for a Christian to go into a bar for a drink?
4. Would it be wrong for a Christian to own a bar?
5. Would it be wrong for a Christian to own a winery?
6. Would it be wrong for a Christian to own a brewery or a distillery?
I have some follow-up comments that I would like to post – after I see how far you would take your position. I would think that the logically consistent answers to the above questions would be “noâ€, but you may see it differently.
-David Nash
David,
I appreciate your desire to interact on this issue. I think I know where you are going with these questions, but let me make the specific context of my article clear. I have always assumed taking a sip of alcohol was equivalent to sin. I was informed my whole life that liquor was condemned in the Bible unequivocally. Through the study of scripture I became convinced this is not true. Scripture actually affirms alcohol as a good gift of God, but it does condemn drunkenness. Even after agreeing with Scripture’s position, I was loathe to drink due to my pre-bias against it and my equating drinking with an evil lifestyle. And so I am sort of divided in my response to your questions.
To #1 and #2 I would say no, hands down. Both strong drink and wine are allowed in Scripture. (Dt. 14:22-26, Prov. 31:6-7, Num. 28:7). The effects of these drinks are praised as a gift of God (Ps. 104:14-15, Is. 24:7-11). In fact Is. 24:11 calls wine the “gladness of the earth”. Anyone who has drunken wine or alcohol would tell you that it lifts your spirit and makes you glad. It “gladdens the heart”. Grape Juice and Coca Cola do not affect you this way. Since the effect of wine and strong drink is praised as part of God’s intention, other types of alcohol would be okay as well. As long as they are not abused. Some types of alcoholic drinks (like a new beer in Europe that has 90% alcohol content, I just heard about) might be extremely unwise to use. Who would want to drink only 2 spoonfuls of a drink (that is the suggested serving size–from the interesting facts section of the latest World magazine) anyway? But generally I would affirm the discerning/moderate use of any alcoholic beverages.
As for points #5 and #6, I would also say no. Now, I may be inclined to be careful in my advertising strategy, and may try to decorate my packaging with Bible verse quotes or something–to do my part in not encouraging drunkenness. But for me to produce something which God says is good, but which may be abused by sinful man, is not sinful and is morally neutral. Could I own a gun manufacturing plant? Couldn’t people misuse that product as well?
Now at points #3 and #4, I think more wisdom is required. God affirms that a use of alcohol to produce joy in one’s life is good. He even encourages giving alcohol to those of heavy hearts or a mourning spirit (Prov. 31:6-7, Jer. 16:7-8). Yet there are also other principles revealed in the Bible for which we can apply to the varying situations we encounter in life. Our culture in a large part promotes a wild party atmosphere where drugs sex and alcohol abound. For this reason I may judge it best to stay out of anything like a nightclub environment. Also, many bars seem interested in promoting a very worldly mindset–swearing, lewd behavior, provacative dress characterize these places. While they also serve burgers and fries, and could be a place I could enjoy a beer and a meal with friends, my utilizing that bar may be promoting this unChristian worldview of a party mentality. However, there are other bars where such an atmosphere is not to be found. They are more family oriented (like Applebees) or present a more neutral environment. I would gravitate toward those bars. Yet if a bar is only a place where people drink and have a good time, I cannot really condemn it. A communal feast in Bible times would bear many similarities. And people are people–most are not saved. I think we are all required to exercise discernment in such choices, but if our predisposition is alcohol is evil or one drink will almost certainly lead to many many more, then I can see we would come to different answers.
Sorry, Dave, but I tend to be longwinded in any of my responses!
Good questions, Dave. I’m not sure if your intention is to ‘entrap’ those of us who drink alcohol in moderation in some kind of ‘compromising situation’, or whether your questions are genuinely intended to raise an ethical/moral point. I’d agree with Bob on all points, and I think he stated his reasonings well.
Personally speaking, I’d like to someday have my own ‘microbrewery’ so that I can create different kinds of beer that are similar to brands that I like. My preferences for beer is not because of the alcohol content (considering my size, which is 6’2″ and 300 pounds, it would take a great amount of alcohol for me to become ‘drunk’– which I have never become), but rather the taste of some beers. The more prominent beer companies out there (Anheuser-Busch, which makes ‘Budweiser’, Coors, Sam Adams, and Miller) have big advertising budgets, but they never get my money because their product tastes HORRIBLE, let alone some of their TV advertising being associated with sinful behavior. I usually prefer lagers like Yuengling, Foster’s, and Corona, which have appealing taste. At any rate, I would own my own microbrewery, but I wouldn’t sell any of the beer; I’d prefer to drink it myself. Besides, grapes don’t do well down here in Florida, so I wouldn’t want to drink the wine from verrry sour grapes.
Bob,
I do not say anything in a judgmental manner. My heart really does break to know that you have done a 180. I am nowhere close to where I should be so I do not look down on anyone. I guess I got it from my father.
Bob,
That was a very interesting article by Ben Merkle. I really liked his conclusion, which he said, “Recently, as the micro-brew market has opened up, America has seen the resurgence of a number of great beers. But this is only a superficial recovery. While it is true that we are now offered a variety of beers, the root of the problem remains. The church, in general, still links the prohibitionist mentality to piety and can’t even stand alcohol in the Lord’s Supper. It would appear that the American culture aptly portrays the American church. We have an emasculated church and wimpy beer to match.” Sooooo much of the ‘resentment’ and angst against alcohol as a beverage goes back to the attitudes prevelent in the late 1800′s through Prohibition. I even was a member of a church that observed the ordinance of the Lord’s Supper with alcoholic wine, but also had in its Church Covenant that members were to abstain from alcoholic beverages!
Considering the types of beer out there, I would hope that you could be able to taste beers that I believe are really good in taste. Although Merkle had some negative things to say about lager, I’d be tempted to disagree with his opinion on what tastes good, although I generally agree with him that most ‘prominent’ American beer is nasty tasting. Some lagers are really, really good beers. Michelob AmberBock is probably the best out there that is available all across the USA. If you’re able to get it, I’d also suggest Yuengling Lager, Killian’s Red (Irish), Foster’s (Australian), JM Dundee’s Honey Lager, Bass Ale (British), Tuborg (Danish), Newcastle (British), and Corona (Mexico). Hopefully you’ll discover such to be very refreshing, and not too expensive by the six-pack (and, by the way, only get beer in a bottle– cans just don’t hold flavor very well).
Personally speaking, I was once an abstentionist until not too long ago. I nearly had it out with my wife’s parents because I didn’t want alcohol present at my wedding (which was only a year and a half ago). A former pastor of mine, Fred Zaspel, wrote an article about wine and alcohol, and that is what started me to rethink what the Bible really had to say about alcoholic beverages and whether believers could drink without being in sin. Grace from God, methinks, showed me my ignorance about His goodness in freeing me from such unbiblical attitudes toward what He calls ‘good’!
Larry,
Good comments. I have only had a few drinks of only one kind of beer to this point. But I aim to try the darker and richer beers in time. Your point about beer is echoed by an article written by Ben Mercle for Crendenda Agenda (vol. 11 issue 2).
Another interesting article I read on the issue of wine in general is entitled “Worshipping with Body” and is written by Douglas Jones, also for Crendenda Agenda (vol. 10 issue 2). That article deals with feasting and celebration, and our modern lack of it compared to the Scriptural model. Fascinating read, you should look at it.
A comment for Larry:
Entrapment? I should hope not. I just wanted to be sure of a few points. First of all, is any distinction being made between alcoholic wine and other alcoholic beverages? (no) Secondly, is there consistency between the approval of consuming alcohol and the approval of selling it? (yes) and Thirdly, is there recognition of other factors besides the drinking of alcohol itself, e.g., the atmosphere in some bars (yes).
And for Bob:
There are three common positions on alcohol today. The first would be a total abstinence position: it is wrong for all Christians to consume alcohol as a beverage. The second would be a “wisdom†position: while it can not be prohibited for all Christians in all cultures, it is *unwise* for Christians in our American culture to consume alcohol as a beverage. The third position is the one which I believe you are advocating: it is wrong to prohibit or discourage Christians from consuming alcohol according to Biblical guidelines.
The position which I would hold is the “wisdom†position, and here are a few reasons why:
1. The function of wine is different in our society than what it was in Bible times.
Israel was primarily an agrarian society. Outward manifestations of God’s blessing included sufficient rain; protection from external enemies, pestilence, and plague; and a bountiful harvest. The cream of the crop (so to speak) would be the oil, wine, wheat, milk (and other animal products), and honey. If the harvest was good, then these could be had in abundance. If times were lean, then only the rich could afford a steady supply. With no refrigeration and no pasteurization, there really were very few beverage choices. In that environment, what could be better than wine? What’s more, alcohol was also very useful for water purification, as well as medicinal uses. (Can you even imagine living in a society without aspirin or Tylenol?)
Our society today (in America) is very different. Most of us don’t have a seasonal harvest; we have a weekly paycheck. Even the poorest of our society has a multitude of appealing food and beverage choices on a daily basis. Water purification takes place at the local water treatment plant. We have all manner of medicines available without having to resort to alcohol. Also, because of the prominence of automobiles in our culture, there is significant danger to the driver and to others for driving while intoxicated. Also there is a significant cultural acceptance of not only intoxication but drunkenness (as long as nobody gets hurt).
2. The potency of wine is different in our society than what it was in Bible times.
Now you can read some studies that say that the alcoholic content of wine today is about what it was 2000 years ago, and you can read other studies that say that the wine of 2000 years ago was significantly more diluted (and therefore less potent) than the alcoholic beverages of today. I tend to put more stock in the latter, because of the following point, which is…
3. The negative effects of alcohol
I was actually a little surprise by this, but do you know that if you google “alcohol†and “effects†you will get page after page of references to many negative effects of alcohol. *Small* amounts of alcohol produce a feeling of euphoria, but past that alcohol is a depressant and its list of side effects is long (and sobering): loss of inhibition, loss of alertness, impaired reasoning, emotional swings. It takes as little as 1 to 1.5 drinks to impair driving performance (though this may not be enough to fail a sobriety test). Also for women who are pregnant, alcohol affects the fetus as well. When I try to reconcile these well-documented negative effects with some admittedly positive references to wine in scripture, one way for it to makes sense is if the alcoholic content of the wine of the Bible was significantly lower than our alcoholic beverages today (back to point #2)
4. The emphasis of Proverbs
While there are both positive and negative references to wine in scripture, I find it interesting that majority of references in Proverbs cast a decidedly negative view on wine and strong drink. While these should not be viewed as absolutes (and therefore conclusive), many of the warnings in Proverbs appear to be particularly relevant to our society today.
Conclusion: in our modern society in America, there are fewer legitimate needs for wine (even in moderation) than in Bible times, and there is also far more danger. It is wise for the Christian to abstain. When Christ returns to establish His millennial kingdom, we can then safely drink the fruit of the vine with Him (Mark 14:25).
David Nash,
Thank you for your ‘gracious’ comments here. Many of those who advocate your position seem to be extremely defensive (and obnoxious) about their beliefs that drinking alcoholic beverages is ‘stupid’ (as Bob Bixby claims). I think yours is a reasonable one, but it should only be held as a ‘personal preference’ rather than as a command. I don’t have a problem with anyone who believes as you do, but do have problems with those who are strident in appealing to a non-biblical basis of argumentation. In regard to your conclusions, I’d suggest that you would ‘rethink’ what the Bible says about alcohol– it is a gift from God and it is good. Regardless of the types of society that differ from ours (American/Western) and the ancients, it seems that there is abundant Biblical passages that don’t consider any difference between the two; alcoholic beverages were enjoyed whether or not non-alcoholic beverages were available. Secondly, the potency of the alcoholic content in alcoholic beverages isn’t a consideration. You could get drunk on wine that was diluted with water (if you assume that wine was commonly diluted with water in ancient times, although I think the archaelogical data from their times indicates that wine in their time was as equally potent, even in common wine). Thirdly, my wife is currently pregnant (seven months right now), and her OB/GYN doctor has said that an occaisional glass of wine is fine. There are ‘negative’ effects of alcohol, but in order to be ‘intoxicated’ in a negative way, you would have to be literally drunk. Each person has his or her threshold in which to be ‘legally’ impaired, and as such each person is responsible to maintain his/her own moderation. That is why we have laws protecting the public from people who don’t drink responsibly. This is why moderation is acceptable for anyone who desires to drink alcoholic beverages. In contrast to the negative effects of alcohol, there are many positives, including health benefits from alcohol. I don’t have the resources currently available to me right now, but I have seen published scientific studies that indicate that alcoholic beverages do have positive effects on people when taken in moderation (not to excess).
In other words, I believe your reasoning(s) aren’t valid, at least not valid for me to consider ‘switching’ to your point of view. It’s not wrong to personally abstain for any reason, really, but those who become belligerent and schismatic over this have really got to realize that they are the ones holding to a heretical position. To hold the opinion that it’s stupid for Christians to drink alcoholic beverages is way over the line of decency, and that’s why I take umbrage at comments made by Bob Bixby and others who believe as he does.
David,
First of all, let me thank you for the kind and gracious spirit of your comments. Let me say that I respect your point of view and your arguments.
Now I still disagree. Given the fact that wine and strong drink are very often equated with beverages that can make you drunk, it seems appropriate to use that backdrop for interpreting the words in passages which mention these drinks as a blessing from God. Also, the fact that wine is called “the gladness of the earth” and said to “gladden the heart of man” and is often said to be synonymous with joy, seems to highly push for the view that the effects of fermented alcohol are in view. Knowledge of alcoholic drinks today confirms that they can be enjoyed for their joy-producing effects well before drunkenness occurs.
For me, whether or not the alcoholic content differed from wine today, since the effects of the alcohol are specifically praised, alcoholic drinks today should be able to be enjoyed as well. We have more beverage choices today which are healthy than they did, for sure. So we should have even less excuse to get drunk, in my opinion. Historically, beer and alcoholic drinks remained staple beverages up until the 1800s and beyond. At one point, some people promoted the use of beer over other that of other more potent alcoholic drinks as a means of helping to limit the numbers of people who became drunk. Yet it was not until the late 1800s that abstinence from alcoholic drinks was seen as the best preventative for drunkenness.
I think you are correct in your use of Proverbs, by the way. Proverbs is above all else, poetry. So in poetic language, several proverbs condemn drunkenness. We should not overinterpret the Proverbs and lose sight of their identity as poetry. We all allow for poetic license in our songs and poems of our era, we must for Biblical poems as well.
The only danger I see in your position is your assessment of my position as being one which advocates “it is wrong to prohibit or discourage Christians from consuming alcohol according to Biblical guidelines”. I think you are making my position say to much. You offer the “Bible teaches total abstinence” view and “the wisdom view–it is unwise for all American Christians to partake” view, and then give mine as the third option. So from this perspective, pastors much either universally discourage drinking (based on either a Biblical abstinence position, or a Bible says it is unwise for us today position) or universally encourage drinking. This is a similar to binary thinking, in my opinion.
I think Pastors can teach the blessing of alcohol as well as its potential for being “unwise” for Christian’s to use, both for its potential danger to them, as well as due to the specific culture we live in which views alcohol as part and parcel with an anti-God spirit. Then Pastors can encourage people to excercise their individual liberty and make their own decisions according to the Spirit’s leading and in accord with their conscience. If Paul instructed the Roman church, which had people on both sides of the alcholic drink fence (apparently), to get along even though you disagree, why cannot this be our strategy? In fact, I think the tendency pastors and others have toward enforcing their personal decision on everyone as the only position which really respects the Bible is plain wrong. When the Bible does not unequivocally forbid alcohol, I think it is foolish at best and harmful at worst for pastors and others to encourage others to unequivocally avoid alcohol. (And I think Bob Bixby was getting close to this in his posts. Yet he seemed to want to have it both ways. He wanted to universally condemn it, yet allow for some to partake of it because it is not explicitly forbidden in Scripture.)
Anyway, thank you, David, for bringing up your arguments and encouraging discussion of this topic here on my blog. You are welcome to say more, or to visit back from time to time and agree or disagree with what is being said.
In Christ,
Bob Hayton
Bob Hayton,
Have you considered writing a book on the subject? You have an amazing gift of writing, and conveying your thoughts very meaningfully! I think it’s very important that the unbiblical notions that many Christians have toward alcohol be addressed. I don’t like being castigated, maligned, or impugned because I believe the Word of God teaches that alcohol is a gift from God and can be partaken of freely in moderation. I do thank you for what you have written, and commend you for your godly spirit.
Larry,
Thank you for your input also. It has been good to see you here, and to be able to interact with you. I hope to see your participation in other posts which may interest you!
God bless.
Bob,
Just a few points, as it is Sunday evening going on late.
1. In attempting to summarize your position I did not mean to imply that it would “universally encourage drinking†or never call for warning regarding the potential for misuse of alcohol. But in reading what you have written on the subject, it seems to me that your *emphasis* is more on defending the right to partake in something the Bible teaches as good than it is on urging caution and pointing out the possible pitfalls of alcohol. I do realize that the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If you were to summarize your position on alcohol in one concise sentence, how would you do so?
2. I don’t understand why you are so quick to dismiss the relevance of the issue of the alcoholic content of wine in Bible times. If the wine/strong drink of the Bible *was* significantly weaker than that of common alcoholic beverages today, then it is not a simple apples-to-apples comparison to say that the Bible condones wine, and so should we.
3. Have you ever considered that the Bible offers no prohibition for children to consume wine? If there were no law against it (in the US), at what age would you introduce your children to alcohol?
-David Nash
David,
I’ll respond briefly.
One sentence: The Bible praises the intoxicating effects of alcoholic beverages as a good gift from God while warning against drunkenness as an abuse of this gift, thus the Bible encourages the moderate, careful enjoyment of wine and alcoholic beverages.
Concerning your second point, let me provide a logical synopsis which brings me to the conclusion you question. A – Wine and Strong Drink both clearly can produce drunkenness in Scripture. B – Scripture permits and encourages the use of these beverages. C – Scripture actually praises the very effects of these beverages which ultimately produce drunkenness (if over indulged in)–their intoxicating effects (joy producing, spirit-uplifting effects {which happen long before drunkenness, by the way}). So, on the basis of A, B, and especially C, I conclude D – Scripture condones the use of alcoholic drinks which are liable to produce drunkenness if over indulged in. Now D stands, whether the alcoholic content in those days was 5% (similar to modern beer), 10%, or less. Whatever the content, it was clear that it was rather easy to become drunk. And further, if it was an extremely low content, it would take much of that to produce the intoxicating effects–joy and spirit-uplifting–that Scripture praises. So especially because of C, it does not matter how much alcoholic content there was in those drinks. And further, much evidence exists that the alcoholic content was at least comparable to today’s beer.
As for #3, I would likely not give the beverage to my children until they were legal age (Rom. 13), and if there were no laws, not until late teen age years, and then only in small amounts.
Robert
David Nash was trying to help you out, but his words have fallen short. I would like to point out that during Bible times in that very dry area the water tended to be bitter,. Growing grapes watered by the bitter water and producing a sweet drink would bring joy, meaning you wouldn’t have to drink that very bitter water. In our modern times we have clean good tasting water as compared to then.
Another thought to bring up. In some of the larger cities in America, you will find “Rescue Missionsâ€. These are places where men and women can come and hear the Gospel preached. Many of these people are alcoholics and need help. How can we tell these people about our Savior and the Bible and then turn around and say it is alright for you to go and have a drink of wine as the Bible says.
One comment about Proverbs, it is a book of wisdom. Heed it.
R.A. Fisher,
I appreciate your comments. You are more than welcome to disagree with my position. Your point about joy referring to a sweet liquid versus bitter water sounds reasonable. Yet I think there are other passages which clearly say that the drunkards are howling due to lack of wine and no joy. Now, drunkards are not clamoring for sweet drinks only–they want intoxicating drinks. Further, the use of the terms wine and strong drink to clearly refer to drinks which can cause drunkenness, seem to weigh in on how we interpret the idea of joy. The use of wine and strong drink in banqueting and feasting contexts seems to be more than just due to the sweetness of the drink. The nature of the beverage is one to produce joy, which is in fitting with feasting and celebration.
Still, even if your point concerning joy were to stand, you still could not honestly say the Bible teaches abstention from alcoholic beverages. The Deut. 14 passage instructing people to drink strong drink and wine before God, Prov. 31:6-7 and others would argue against that. You would have to assume the joy refers to sweet versus bitter, and you would also have to assume that the alcoholic content was significantly different than that of today’s beer, in order for you to teach that the Bible says not to drink today’s alcoholic beverages like beer.
As far as rescue missions go, I do not see your point. We cannot make the Bible say what we want it to. We may think that in their position, it is not wise for them to drink alcoholic drinks, and tell them so, based on Paul’s teaching not to be enslaved by anything. Yet we would have to be bound by Scripture and say it does not expressly condemn alcohol, rather it praises the moderate use of it. I believe Proverbs warns us against the immoderate use of wine and strong drink which results in drunkenness, impaired judgment, etc. Prov. 31:6-7, however instructs for wine and strong drink to be given medicinally, and therapeutically to those ready to die, and those who have a sorrowful heart.
Bob,
I have one final post on this subject and then I’ll leave the final word for you – probably
1. Thanks for your summary – it seems clear enough. I’m tempted to shorten it further but I’d probably get into more trouble
2. Even if I agree with you on A, B, and C, and that D stands regardless of the percentage alcohol content, D is still potentially moderated by an (in dispute) lower percentage alcohol content in Bible times. Here is my reasoning: a lower alcoholic content in Bible times means that in order to get drunk you really had to try hard. You would have had to deliberately drink un-diluted wine or else drink exceptionally large quantities of diluted wine to get drunk. Would you not agree that a lower percentage alcoholic content wine would still be sufficient to produce the intoxicating effects that you mention (joy producing, spirit uplifting, etc.)? This leaves me with two conclusions for wine today – it is easier to become sinfully intoxicated *without intending to* than in Bible times, and also it is easier and *more dangerous* to become impaired (which would be somewhat less than sinfully intoxicated) because of our mode of transportation – high speed motor vehicles. This is why I have chosen the “wisdom†position for myself, and why I would recommend it to others.
3. Do you believe that thoughtful parents in Bible times also did not allow their children to drink wine “until late teen age years, and then only in small amounts� Also, if you believe that wine today is roughly equivalent to wine in the Bible, are you surprised by the scripture’s silence on the topic of wine and children?
I have enjoyed our discussion, Bob. I’m glad that we are able to disagree without being disagreeable. I do hope that in the future your position on alcohol will not become a stumbling block – either for yourself or your family. I’m sure that even a Godly man like Noah had some big regrets regarding alcohol.
“sobering” thoughts (pun intended)
David,
I too have enjoyed the exchange. Your conclusions under point 2 are wise. I think even those who argue for alcoholic drinks as being encouraged by Scripture would agree that today we have both more dangers and a greater ability to become drunk quicker, easier, and without intending to. Thus wisdom is required. As in many things in life, discernment is called for. However, to simply choose to abstain may not be the most faith building means of excercising discernment. Yet the problems related to drunkenness are sobering indeed, and thus I do not despise someone’s choice to abstain. I further commend your desire to recommend rather than mandate such a practice to others.
I agree that your point about children could point to the fact that alcoholic drinks were less potent in those days, thus less of a need for warning as to children’s use and consumption. Then again, there are not many rules handed down about alcohol anyway, only an admonition to not become drunk. Remember, the Bible does not always speak to every issue of life we sometimes want it to. It is first and foremost a revelation of Jesus Christ. It provides basic principles of wisdom for us to use in facing the myriad of choices which await us each day.
In the realm of alcohol, let us both agree to disagree. Let us not villify and condemn where the Bible does not. And let us not scorn and chide, where the Bible says to respect and love our differing brothers.
I sincerely pray God would bless you and yours.
Thanks,
Bob Hayton
Hello,
Before I read these comments, here’s what I wanted to say– Have you looked up wine and water purification in Bible times in a textbook, and if so, could you post the results here? (and I’m not sure where to post these comments so if you place them elsewhere please let me know– I’ll come here to look for your reply.) In reading various of your articles, I have wondered if I looked at your life, how would I see that you are different from a non-Christian? It seems you are making choices that come closer and closer to the world’s philosophy, and use Scripture to do it, just as you accuse others of mis-using Scripture for their own philosophies. Are you coming closer to the world? or closer to Christ? I say these things not to say anything amiss, but to provoke thought. You find total abstinence from wine wrong. What about other kinds of abstinence? Like before (and after, faithfulness) marriage? will you one day find those wrong too? And as you have obeyed these joy verses about wine, I wonder when you are going to obey the ones about foot washing, and women’s head coverings, and selling all you have and give it to the poor…. Again I say these things merely for your thought. To end on a positive note– you have indeed caused God’s people to think about what why they believe what they practice. Thank you.
[...] Now I do not want this article to say too much. I definitely want to be fair and honest in my presentation of the facts. For instance, it appears that Welch was moved more by conviction than capitalism (at least initially). And also the fact that Welch invented the modern method of preserving grape juice does not imply that there were no other methods prior to 1869. For instance the link provided here gives some documentation of ancient methods of preserving grape juice which may have been used in Bible times and after. I am not advocating that every instance of the word wine in the Bible must only be understood as alcoholic wine. However, in my research I believe there are numerous places where the Bible affirms the intoxicating nature of wine (thus fermented wine) as a gift of God, see my first post on the topic here. [...]
Anonymous,
You ask FR if he would one day find abstinence before or after marriage wrong. I think this is an unfair deduction. The Bible has no command not to drink wine, whereas it does have a command not to commit adultery. Also, like FR mentioned, a lack of wine was a judgment of God, just like wives being taken was also a judgment of God.
FR, I find this entire post most affirming in my recent struggle with this. I’ve gone back and forth between this for a while, and have recently decided that it is OK, even smiled upon in the Bible. Your Scripture-laden article helps strengthen my shaky knees and weak conscience. Thank you very much. God bless!
Kevin,
Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your giving an answer to “anonymous” for me. I felt his comparison did not have much weight, but you put my thoughts to words.
I am glad the post was a blessing to you. Perhaps you might appreciate two more recent posts on the topic.
Will You Be Having Some Wine?
and
Welch’s Grape Juice, Worldly Wisdom, and Wine
Does Christ believe that it is good to abstain from alcoholic wine? I think that He does believe that it is good to abstain, as The Word says in Luke chapter 1, verse 15:
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.
The above verse is a reference to John the Baptist. The Word says this is a man who will be great in the sight of the Lord, and it further mentions (though certainly not as a prerequisite to being great in God’s eyes–read on) that this man will be commanded never to take wine or OTHER fermented drink. Here we see that the wine being spoken of was a fermented drink, which we can deduce from the use of the word “other” in the second part of the verse.
However…
When Christ references John the Baptist later on in the book of Luke, we see Him in chapter 7 say the following:
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon.’ 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ‘
…so it appears that Christ Himself tells us that he did drink wine. They even accused Him of being a drunkard!
Look also at Luke chapter 5, where we see Christ saying:
37And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. If he does, the new wine will burst the skins, the wine will run out and the wineskins will be ruined. 38No, new wine must be poured into new wineskins. 39And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’ ”
So, it is very honorable and even “great in the sight of the Lord” to abstain from alcoholic drink. Does that mean that it is wrong for others to drink? Certainly not, as Christ Himself drank wine, and even mentioned the then and now well known fact that “old wine is better.”
In Christ,
Dan
Great post, Dan. At first, you worried me, but as I read more, your point became clear.
Excellent site, blessings
Thank you.
I think you’re making a very good point there
Ich erklare meinen Freunden uber diese Seite. Interessieren!
Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.
(Proverbs 23:29-35)
[...] I am writing this because of stumbling onto several blogposts on this very subject. The Southern Baptist Convention just recently passed another resolution condemning the “use” of alcohol. Not the “abuse” but its “use”. This has sparked several blog objections and a few have caught my eye. Below I am listing some links for you to peruse. I also mention a few things I have learned recently through these blogposts. But before I send you to these links, take the time to read my first post defending wine entitled “‘Wine to Gladden the Heart of Man’: Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of WineR…. [...]
I have to say that as a college student i have a very low opinion of anyone who openly espouses moderate drinking..once i was like you..and i believed that by showing control and drinking carefully as I do that you could teach people so that they would not abuse alcohol…however, abuse is rather hard to define biblically or even consistently between people..you don’t seem to have defined drunkenness very well either. Regardless i no longer believe that telling people that wine is a gift from God is wise..they already know that drinking is not condemned explicitly…but Christians are not capable of showing the control necessary to use alcohol biblically..moreover societal constructs create situations where using alcohol ends up functioning as a support for many other things.
Sure, there are plenty of christians with the willpower to avoid abuse most of the time…but the number of college students i’ve met taht avoided it always? I see so many dozens of sincere christians that have fallen prey to its whiles..and then they go through that repentance phase and drink responsibly for a while, and then fall prey to peer pressure or something again…the only people i have ever met who are morally capable of always resisting alcohol were people that had no desire to drink to begin with.
Anyways, i get the feeling you are older and that you probably have better control..and less instances where pressure will hit you strongly…but i will say that if you intend to teach college students that wine is God’s gift and that it’s ok to try it..and then think that this will not lead them down a path of sin..that you’re most likely a fool…you should be warning them of the dangers…
i suppose i should be fair and say that you could teach them that it is God’s gift but that there are dangers…but i still find the whole idea laughable…
but whatever..most Christian leaders in college get drunk from time to time..it’s a fact..and one that sadly your viewpoint is accountable for..certainly they don’t wish to get drunk..they merely wish to enjoy God’s great gift
i should probably fix that to say avg christians..but whatever..the meaning is understood
lots of misspellings and is
“espouse” really the right word? I guess what bothers me is this whole wine is good and a gift from God thing…you wish to teach this it seems…
i find this utterly ridiculous even though the statement itself is true..
what it reminds me most is of http://www.virb.com/brandonrike/videos/17162
THey played this at my college..yet can I honestly say that the issue addressed here was ever a problem with any of them? the answer is no..while cowardice and a refusal to confront sin while just trying to be friends with the world and love everyone and show Christ by their lives was.
Josh,
I respect your strong feelings and opinions on this issue. I am older than most college age people but not by much, I’m still more than 2 years from 30.
Here’s my main beef with your response. The Bible abundantly teaches that wine is a gift from God. If we are to teach the Bible we must teach that.
Me thinks you are pointing your finger at God and effectively saying, “How could you put that in the Bible God? Okay so its not a sin to drink, but look at the harm drink does? Don’t you know about the societal constructs and peer pressures and the difficulty of holding to moderation in today’s world? Why then speak so positively so often about alcohol? Don’t you know what you’re doing???”
Josh. By all means warn against drunkenness as God does. But don’t add prohibitions where God hasn’t. Didn’t Jesus come down harshly against the Pharisees for adding to God’s law? Didn’t he claim they missed the whole point?
Wasn’t it rash for Jesus to provide so much more alcoholic wine for the wedding feast at Cana?
To me this is about Scripture. Something God abundantly and clearly calls good, is being said to be “bad”. We think we know better than God?
I have taken an intense interest in this subject and have been reading a lot on both views of moderation ism, abstention ism & prohibition ism. One of the best articles I have came across on the subject is fond in the Wikipedia encyclopedia CHRISTIANITY AND ALCOHOL. Another interesting article I fond was from a web blog called Grace and Truth to You, article entitled Conversion to Christ Over a Glass of Wine. This is a blog of a Southern Baptist pastor who speaks out against his SB Conservatives of Texas over their extra-Biblical requirements of total abstinence. Drinking with Calvin and Luther is a good book on the history of alcohol in the church.
Most all of the Christian Prohibitionist arguments are not taken from the scriptures which is quite ironic given the fact they believe the Bible is the final authority. There arguments are from data, statistics, culture, and human reasoning.
I have never been a total abstainer of alcohol but have always attended teetotaler churches. I would have a couple beers when visiting my wife’s family and on special occasions at a fine restaurant it just seem right to have a glass of wine with the meal.
It was not till the summer of 2004 when I made the discovery of the micro/craft brewed beer revolution in America that I began to drink in moderation on a regular basis. It was then I decided to take a serious look at this issue. “Seeking those things that pleases the Lord” (or don’t) I needed to find out if what I was doing was really sin as some would have us to believe.
In a nut shell I came to the conclusion that the teetotalers “do good” in their abstinence of alcohol in the same way Paul said in 1Cor. 7:1 “It is good not to marry….” but in 1 Tim. 4:1-4 (1) “In the later times…..(3) They forbid people to marry…..(4)For everything God created is good….” (Please read these verses in their entirely)
You need to have a edit button because I notice I spelled restaurant RESTRIANT and my spell check don’t know what I meant to wright.
I apologize for the consecutive post but I was reading through all the post carefully and wanted to make a commit on Larry Lawton March 22, 2006 7:50am post. I don’t agree with lumping Samuel Adams (SA),Boston Beer Company in with Budweiser, Miller,Coors (B/M/C). SA makes up less than 1% of all beer sales in the U.S. Their advertising dollars is just as dwarf. I have seen SA commercials in my area but never ones that were of poor taste. Has for the taste that is a matter of ones taste buds. I will say at a beer web site called Beer Advocate members rate and write reviews of just about every beer under the planet. B/M/C rates very poorly but SA rates very good with all their beers. I am not loyal to any particular brand of beer. I have tried 134 different beers with them being classified into 48 different styles.
Jason,
I appreciate your interaction in my old threads. Blessings to you.
Unfortunately, WordPress.com doesn’t allow users to edit their comments, but I did make the correction needed for you.
One critique on your 1 Cor. 7:1 point, the Greek text does not say “marry”. It says “touch”. And that may well be a euphemism for marry, but some (especially fundamentalists), go with the literal meaning. To them the parallel verses would not be parallel, losing the value of your argument (although in honesty, 1 Cor. 7 does argue against marriage in a certain situation).
And I agree SA is quite different thatn B/M/C. Personally, I enjoy some Michelob beers, and an occasional Miller Genuine Draft or Coors. But for the most part I try to avoid all buds and budweisers. Part of this is the expense factor.
Again, good to hear from you.
Bob Hayton
Bob, you are right I was using the NIV and touch is is the more literal meaning. Thanks for the correction on that point. I’m new to your site and was not paying attention to what was old threads or new.
This issue just surface between me and a dear fundamental Baptist friend. He had genuine concern for me. and said that God has set a line in which we must not cross over. By me choosing to drink I move myself closer to that line and make it possible to cross over by the possibility of getting drunk or worse yet by becoming addicted. He would rather stay as far away from that line as possible. My only response I could think of at the time was to apply that logic in another situation such as marriage. In our society today the divorce rate is about 50% even among Christians. Yet we don’t prohibit marriage in our churches because of a 50% possibility we could commit the sin of divorce.
Please look at the description of our latest book, The Late Great Evangelical Church, by Doner. He shows how Fundamentalism has greatly compromised the church. Look at the chapter headings. –Oakdown.com
[...] “Wine to Gladden the Heart of Manâ€: Thoughts on God’s Good Gift of Wine [...]
I too have taken a hard look at the biblical position on drinking wine. I was raised in a minister’s home and brought up to believe that you don’t drink, get your ears pierced, dance, gamble….etc. For years, I didn’t really know what grace was. I have since come to realize that trying to earn God’s favor is not possible….or what God intended! In reading the entries, I wanted to contribute what I see as a ‘logical’ point for enjoying wine. I liken the drinking of wine to enjoying marital relations. Outside of marriage, the bible most certainly does not approve! However, within the bonds of marriage, sex is accepted, right and highly encouraged from our Lord. Sex is not sinful when acted within the intended boundaries of marriage. In the same way, drinking wine is not sinful when used within the boundaries of God intentions. I can say with certainty that questions would indeed be raised if Christians took the stance to abstain from sex because you could be tempted to have sex outside the bonds of marriage. Taking the stance of abstinence in drinking is similar.
Kendall,
Thanks for the good point here.
Blessings to you.
Bob
Just recently found your blog. Nice post. Do you mind if I quote some of your stuff in a blog I am preparing?
Sure Erik. Just provide a link back to this post.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob
I enjoyed the discussion here.
I’ve been participating in a discussion on Boundless.org and was sent on a chase for articles condemning the use of alcohol.
I grew up in the Episcopal church, so this whole argument is only a recent one for me to deal with.
Concerning giving alcohol to children:
Strong liquor has been used mixed with milk to calm babies’ stomachs and help them sleep better.
I personally was allowed to have a sip of wine starting at the age of 10 with every major family dinner (Easter, Thanksgiving, Christmas). I remember my father sending me to visit a friend in Wisconsin with money for Milwakee brewed beer when I was 13 (I was adamently opposed to this idea, but I laughed at how serious he was about it).
As I grew older, my parents and uncle felt it better to expose us to alcohol and teach us how to use it wisely while we were still young enough to be influenced by them. In their minds, far better for us to not feel the need to sneak out and over-indulge on a binge that to be free to drink within the presence of family members.
I appreciate many of your arguments. I have never questioned whether it was a sin or not to partake in alcoholic drinks. This was simply because by the time I was old enough to legally drink and no longer at my “dry-campus” college, I had already been exposed to what the bible says about alcohol.
To Dave and those that don’t agree that it is right and have chosen to abstain, I respect your choice and it makes me very happy that you have stated your position in such a way that doesn’t make me feel like the “spawn of the devil”.
To the anonymous college student, it is possible to say “no”. However, its a lot easier to say “no” when you don’t feel that it is a novelty. Most college students shouldn’t be drinking outside of their parents’ homes due to the country’s laws, anyway. But when drinking, I would encourage every christian to set a limit before they ever start drinking.
[...] is just a few texts on wine bringing joy. You can see a fuller post covering this topic here. No other beverage is singled out as one which produces joy. And the very nature of alcoholic wine [...]
Could it be that what the Bible refers to as (fruit of the vine) is actually fresh grape juice and not modern day wine (grape juice left to ferment). Since the Bible does condemn strong drink.
Charles,
Thanks for dropping by. The Bible actually condones the use of strong drink in Deut. 14:22-26 and Numbers 28:7. Many want to make “fruit of the vine” into some description of non-alcoholic drink, but this is a faulty assumption. The phrase is only used by Jesus in the specific context of the Passover / Lord’s Supper. In Judaism it was a technical term for the wine used at the Passover which we know was wine (albeit somewhat watered down comparable to the alcoholic content of beer). The Bible predominantly uses the term wine, and almost always it is a fermented wine, at least most scholars say this is the case.
We need to beware of bringing our interpretation to the text instead of letting the text force our interpretation.
Blessings to you in Christ,
Bob Hayton
You did not post any kind of alcoholic percentages. Wine today and wine in the Bible had very differing alcoholic contents. While God may have permitted the enjoyment of fermented or “possibly intoxicating” wine, actually getting drunk on the stuff would have taken all day given its small alcoholic content. Today, beverages are not even considered alcoholic under 3.2%. Wine in biblical times appears to have been under that percentage, and while that has no effect on the thinking of people back then, it can help us to understand God’s view of wine in Biblical perspectives. What was the BIBLICAL process of wine making? Scripture must interpreted correctly. We both agree on that, but how must one view wine in regards to the culture of that day and not ours.
Thanks,
Your brother in Christ Nick
Nick,
Many beers today are 3.2% content. The stuff I’ve read suggests that a typical wine in Bible times was around 4% alcoholic content or so. What you are saying about having to drink the stuff all day in order to get drunk doesn’t quite fit in with the Biblical admonitions not to get drunk, and not to be deceived by wine.
I do agree that it is easier to get drunk using today’s distilled liquors. This doesn’t necessarily change things all that much. Scripture says, per my argument above, that the effects of wine that come prior to inebriation are commendable. So if having one’s spirit uplifted by the drink is commendable, surely this is true whether or not it took 3 cupfuls of liquid to get there or just 1. Drunkenness is still forbidden and you can avoid it easily today.
In fact, the very cup designs for drinking alcohol today bear this in mind. Wine is served in 6 oz. wine glasses, vodka is served in 2 oz. shot glasses. Beer is served in 12 oz. mugs. Each of these servings will give one approximately the same alcoholic punch. None of these would typically get the average person drunk.
Hope that helps. You may also want to explore other articles I’ve done on this topic under the category wine.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob
Thanks for this post Bob!
I came from nearly identical background from you, and recently had a discussion with another friend from my past who is now also somewhat reformed but still holds on to much of the IFB legalism. His arguments against alcohol boiled down to that he believes that when I drink a glass of wine he sins. I think he about died when I told him that Jesus drank and that I believe that christians not only can but should!
I wish I would have found this while we were still discussing it.
Glad you found my blog, Matt. I can definitely identify with your situation.
If I can help in any way, let me know. Hope you stick around…
Blessings in Christ,
Bob
Maranatha Bible Society: Check this Blog
http://maranathabiblecult-12.blogspot.com/
Hey, Bob. Hopefully you’ll see this comment on such an old article.
I still get links from your blog, but my links have changed around a bit. One of them sort of works with an extra click and the other one doesn’t work.
So if you get the chance, you could update the links to http://fitzage.com/article/alcohol-and-the-christian and http://fitzage.com/article/alcohol-and-the-christian-part-deux
I’ll also try to get around to adding redirects in. The same goes for your Will You Have Wine article, which I get links from as well. Glad to see this is still having an effect!
Matt
Matt,
I’ll update the links soon. Thanks!
This is a very good discussion and I heartily agree with the exposition of the author here. Actually, I agree with God.
I want to bring up what is an obvious comparison==that food (which is also a blessing) can be overused as well. As many have argued that it is easier to get drunk now a days – it is also easier to get fat! (in America anyway). Blessings! Laurie Duffy
[...] more on how the Bible thinks of wine, I thought this was interesting. And for more on fasting (which is for the first time becoming real to me, and is [...]