The Short Version
I am a graduate of a conservative independent fundamental Baptist college who has discovered new life in reformed theology. This blog is where I chronicle my journey out of extreme fundamentalism (IFBx) while discussing the shortfalls of fundamentalism and the strengths of Calvinism. I’m under no illusion that I might transform fundamentalism, but I hope to share my struggles and discoveries with others who might benefit from my journey. For more on the blog see below. For more on my background and the particulars of my journey out of fundamentalism, see below or read my story.
About This Blog
This blog, being about me, is the place where my thoughts and views are expressed. But you already knew that.
Okay, so let’s begin with my blog’s name. Maybe that will clue you in as to what my blog is about.
Fundamentally Reformed. It means I am a reformed fundamentalist, as in no longer in the fundamentalist movement. It also means that I am one who now embraces reformed theology. In fact, my blog’s subtitle is “reforming fundamentalism (IFB) through reformed theology”, and so yes, I believe that reformed theology could reform many in fundamentalism.
Right about now it is important to define some terms. First, when I speak of fundamentalism I speak of independent Baptist fundamentalism (IFB). Some equate the term with Muslim extremism, while others with evangelical theology or Christianity in general. Neither of those definitions work.
Secondly, I need to give some of my background so you know from what “branch” of fundamentalism I came from. The fundamentalism I came from is often termed IFBx (extreme fundamentalism). I think the definition fits, although I tend to think an asterisk is called for. My alma mater, for instance, is not into the blatant man worship and ultra traditionalism which permeates those who rightfully own the IFBx label. They find Scriptural reasons (using sound hermeneutical methods, for the most part) for the standards and positions they adhere to. In fact, I am thankful for the emphasis on Scripture and a serious devotion to Christ that I inherited from this branch of fundamentalism.
It is the positions they hold and how tenaciously they hold them, which makes that branch of fundamentalism extreme. Some of the positions they hold, such as KJV onlyism and the teaching that women should not wear pants are extreme in the sense that there is so little clear teaching in Scripture which demands these positions. The few verses claimed to support them have other obvious interpretations available. Yet only one interpretation is allowed. Other positions which may have a larger Scriptural support, are held in such a way as to say that only their own interpretation is correct. If one is not pre-trib rapture, or if they hold to less than conservative music style, or if they hold to any form of Calvinism, they are not only wrong, but worthy of censure and separation. The broader movement of fundamentalism might limit fellowship to some degree over these issues, but they do not “write off” those who hold differing views to the extreme degree that IFBx fundamentalists do.
A further consideration here comes with regard to the extreme emphasis on loyalty and allegiance to personalities. IFBx fundamentalists view any departure from their list of required positions as compromise and disloyalty. This sector of fundamentalism also places an undue emphasis on authority. Any questioning of a position, however sincere and non threatening, is viewed as an attack and a threat to the leader’s ministry. Such a situation begs a complicit adherence to the authority’s list of do’s and don’ts and facilitates an unhealthy separation of external conformity and internal heart worship. With such a stress on outward conformity, it is easy to seek to gain acceptance by men while neglecting the matters of the heart. While the particular circles of fundamentalism I came from were not as extreme in this regard as other IFBx groups, they still hold an undue emphasis on loyalty and conformity, which again puts them as IFBx* in my book.
Within this branch of fundamentalism, there is no liberty to contemplate changing one’s positon on a point or two. Any capitulation from any small point is seen as a departure from fundamentalism en toto, and in reality a departure from the faith! Thus, any break from this branch of fundamentalism (at least a break made by someone who was whole-heartedly embracing all of the points to begin with) is necessarily very dramatic and often final. It also results in much pain in the one leaving. When one emerges from extreme fundamentalism, they do so with a lot of disorientation and a feeling that they will never fit in anywhere ever again! More than doctrinal positions and standards are left behind, one’s very identity is left behind. In a lot of ways, it is very similar to leaving a cult.
So having experienced all the difficulty and agony involved in contemplating leaving and actually leaving, including problems with family and friends, I wanted to hear of other’s experiences on the web, or to connect with some people to help me through this situation. I did not find much out there that dealt with this at all! So I started this blog to provide a place to deal with such issues, personally (by chronicling my journey and putting my rambling thoughts on all these issues down on paper), and to hopefully help others. I wanted to facilitate those who suspect that there are problems with fundamentalism but do not know where to look in Scripture for answers with a forum discussing the shortfalls of fundamentalism.
This blog, then, aims to help others who are in their own journey within fundamentalism. The blog may help some leave fundamentalism totally. And it may give some needed help and support to those who already have left (or who choose to). It might also give others some perspective and help in leaving the more extreme corners of fundamentalism and settling into a more balanced wing of the movement. Let me be clear, I do not necessarily want to get everyone out of fundamentalism. I think the movement still has some value and there are many who are doing a great job in calling for reform. Sharper Iron, for instance, represents many different strands of reasonable fundamentalists who share a balanced perspective, a wariness of traditionalism, and a desire to save the movement.
So with all the above having been said, let me briefly mention some of the topics this blog discusses. I don’t harp on fundamentalism with each post. I discuss reformed theology, Calvinism, and covenantal theology often, and I include some devotional and general interest posts. I do discuss fundamentalism, separation/unity, standards, as well as specific issues like KJV Onlyism, and Music. And I like to highlight some of the newer music written today which has great and Christ-glorifying lyrics. While I like to practice armchair theology and talk about books and recommended articles and such, many times I merely reminisce about my own past or peculiar eccentricities of fundamentalism. I also share family and church news. In short, my blog contains a wide array of interesting topics. (Hey, I think what I write about is interesting, doesn’t everybody?)
More Info on the Blog
Finally, let me link to a few posts from the past which can help you get a sense of the mission and direction of this blog, and of my particular take on fundamentalism. But before I do, let me state one more obvious thing. The best way to learn about this blog, is to read it!
- This post gives an introduction to blogging for the uninitiated
- This post lays out my commenting policy
- This post highlights my ultimate aim in all of my blogging
- This post and this post clarify my critique of fundamentalism
- This post explains my motto (”Striving for the Unity of the Faith for the Glory of God”)
- This post (which is basically a copy of this about page) includes some discussion in the comments section which may help you understand what exactly is my differentiation between IFB and IFBx
- And finally, this post is my original “about this blog”, kept for posterity’s sake.
More About Me
- Learn more about me here.
- Read My Story.
- Feel free to contact me.
[...] About [...]
I am not sure what your blog was talking about, but I gather that you understand about
the strictness of fundamental Baptist churches.
My son is in one , and I am gathering information about this church. It is independent and the pastor controls everything the members do. I only see my son Thanksgiving and Christmas. Probably not at all now , since I will not attend his church. I was saved in that church and immediately left soon after, when I realized what it was about. I am attending another church. If you can help me, I would appreciate it. Bonnie Walters
Bonnie,
Thanks for the comment. Indeed this is one of the saddest aspects of fundamentalist churches. Often they stress allegiance to their system of belief above simple love for family. I wish your story was not the only one I knew of. But sadly I know of people in my own family which have been hurt by this wrong emphasis of fundamentalism.
I plan to address your comment in a post soon, where I will look into this harmful aspect of fundamentalism.
You can search around my site (click the categories or archives listings on my blog’s sidebar to explore) and hopefully find some articles that might help you. Also some of the blogs I link to from my sidebar may be of help.
If there is anything else I can do or any specific questions you have let me know. You can do that here in the comments section, or if you prefer to email me I’d be glad to correspond. My email is rj hayton @ juno . com [remove the spaces, and it should work for you].
I pray that God would bless you and make his love and faithfulness real to you in this difficult time.
In Christ,
Bob Hayton
Ditto. Like you, I was raised in the Fundamentalist camp and it has done more harm than good. I now believe in the Reformed Doctrines as well. Even though only 10% of pastors in the SBC believe thid way. ( I attend a SBC church in Nashville). I have done extensive research on this matter and have edited a 10 minute tape that features pastors from both the fundamentalist camp and Reformed that display these issues. If you want, I can mail you a copy od this tape that illustrates these issues so well.
Bonnie,
If you are checking this comment section, know that I have recently posted on your comment here. There are some helpful thoughts in the comments there.
God bless,
Bob
Johnny,
Sure! I’d be interested in your tape. Email me at rj hayton @ juno . com [remove the spaces] and I’ll send you my snail mail address.
Thanks,
Bob
Traveling back and forth, from my two homes, in Maryland and California, I have been attending quite a few different kinds of churches throughout the years. One church in particular, I attended in California, Bible Baptist Church in National City, had many different teachings and convictions compared to a lot of the church denominations I regularly attend. This church in National City, had doctrine and standards that branched from the fundamental church organization which is spread through out the world. Although, many of them put their church position as an independent fundamental group, they share the same standards regarding music, appearance, Bible version, etc for the church members. When first introduced to these standards, I took them quite lightly, thinking it was just a preference they rather leaned on, but as I continued to attend this church to the point of being a regular member, I discovered that these standards, to them, were not merely just preferences but strict enforced laws that were supposedly, insisted on by God. To my amazement, if you were a born again Christian who did not abide to these standards, then you were viewed as an enemy to the church and even an “enemy of God.” As you read this essay, acknowledge that I am too a growing Christian seeking more in the Lord. This is not an attack to the church organization but rather my own honest personal views and experiences I had with the church.” (an introduction of my essay)
I cannot believe that you could totally change your beliefs like this.
Daniel,
Please read “My Story”. While you may not agree with me, you will at least see my motivations are entirely Biblical.
Blessings from Christ,
Bob Hayton
Hi,
I was on a blog by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and saw an article under letters received where they (ECE guy) defended his taste and enjoyment of Led Zeppelin. As a former (like 20 years ago) fan and Christian I find this shocking. This is where I have a problem with Evangelicals in general. I was raised a fundy and in many, many ways and thankful for the solid upbringing in the “old ways”. In my teens I didn’t want to face the facts that led zep music was demonic but in my early 20s quit listening after learning Jimmy Page is a practicing satanist and lives in satanist home Alister Crowley.
I do realize though many elements of fundamentalism, especially hyper fundamentalism, to be seriously flawed.
Anyway, LED ZEPPELIN’S record label has a picture of an angel. What is that “angel” doing–it is falling. No conspiracy or questionable interpretation–it is a fallen angel or falling angel. This label was on all of zep’s records.
Sorry this is rushed, but the bottom line way too many evangelicals lack discernment. I am in an Evangelical Church currently not an IFB. I am not a BJ’r either. I am a conservative Evang. but am confortable with the label of moderate fundy.
Hi Bob,
Michael/natamllc here.
I want to quote from a commentary on fundmentalism and ask you to comment on the “accuracy” of the commentary:
The term “fundamentalism” came into existence at the Niagara Falls Bible Conference which was convened in an effort to define those things that were fundamental to belief. The term was also used to describe “The Fundamentals,” a collection of twelve books on five subjects published in 1910 by Milton and Lyman Steward. These two wealthy brothers were concerned with the moral and spiritual decline they believed was infecting Protestantism, and sought to restore the historic faith with a 12 volume call to arms that dealt with five subjects that latter became known as the five fundamentals of the faith: (1) Literal inerrancy of the autographs (the originals of each scriptural book); (2) the virgin birth and deity of Christ; (3) the substitutionary view of the atonement; (4) the bodily resurrection of Christ; (5) The imminent return of Christ. These twelve volumes were sent to “every pastor, evangelist, missionary, theological student, Sunday School Superintendent, YMCA and YWCA secretary.” In all, some 3 million copies were mailed out.
Michael,
This is basically correct. This is the origin of the historic definition of “fundamentalist”.
In this sense J.I. Packer and John Piper view themselves as fundamentalists.
The fundamentalism I talk about, is a development within historic fundamentalism. Some of the original fundamentalists became what they called “new evangelicals”. And some of the remaining fundamentalists reacted against that in such a way that the resulting movement became aligned with a specific take on separation (secondary separation) and an emphasis on actually coming out of denominations rather than working for their purity from within. They also repudiated many elements of modern culture, and became as concerned with music, dress, Bible versions (in maybe 50% of the movement), and non-attendance at movie theaters as they were with the deity of Christ. They also raised secondary doctrines like a particular eschatological position (pre-trib rapture), dispensational hermeneutics, believer’s baptism to virtually the same level as the original fundamental doctrines.
I hope my response here helps clarify things for you.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
Hey Bob,
I’ve thoroughly enjoyed your blog. I discovered it through the Mike Huckabee site, of all places.
I can greatly relate to your story…I gave my life to Christ in a small 40-member Independent Fundamental Baptist Church in Fort Worth. Unlike many that start in a church like that, I did not grow up in church. I just happened to be dating a girl who grew up in that church.
I am thankful for the intense emphasis on truth. I think that it has shaped how I approach Scripture today, and will serve well in the field my wife and I are preparing to enter. We are missionaries with Wycliffe Bible Translators, and God has brought us into this field of missions at a crucial time when translators are having to re-focus their attention on theology, rather than linguistics. You see, there are two sides to Bible translation: the linguistic and scientific side, and the hermaneutical and theological side. And while I had always been excited about coming into a field of work that would fulfill my love for Scriptural accuracy and theological truth, I just learned a few weeks ago at the Bible Translation 2007 conference that there has recently been an overly strong emphasis on linguistic training with only a basic emphasis on theological training. It’s times like this that I feel like my fundamentalist background is going to help me stand firm, and possibly give my wife and I a platform on which to encourage missionaries in our organization to focus the truth of Scripture, and not just the science of language and words.
Since I left that little church in Fort Worth when I was 19, I have been a part of some great communities of believers. The church my wife and I attended in college was Independent Fundamental, but they took a more balanced approach to their way of “doing church”. Because they understood and encouraged the progression of one’s faith, as opposed to teaching conformity and outward performance as you so clearly define as extreme fundamentalism, we were able to become a part of what we call a true church family. There’s a lot of love in that place, because there is a mutual appreciation for each member’s personal journey of faith, while at the same time there is a genuine effort to preach sound biblical truth. Our college church is now our sending church, and probably the most devoted prayer advocates in our ministry.
I, too, have found enlightenment in reformed theology. Martin Luther is my greatest hero. I love his story. But, I am grieved that I can not preach God’s sovereignty in my sending church. I truly feel the same isolation that you probably feel in confessing the doctrines of grace. The Independent Fundamental realm not only denies this truth, but will outright turn militant in the face of it.
I’ve often thought that if I were not called to be a missionary, I would definitely pray for God to give me a chance to reform the Fundamental movement through expository preaching. May God bless your efforts, Bob, I fear that by leaving the country now I may return to find conservativism, fundamentalism, and reformed theology in America all reduced to rubble and, in turn, find liberalism and nominal Christianity (if any Christianity at all) prominent.
How about a few questions? I haven’t read your entire site, so I might find answers later. But, are you a pastor? If not, what is your profession? Where do you do ministry? What do you think of what I said about the current struggle to bring the work of Bible translation back to learned theologians, rather than just linguists with some Biblical background? Don’t feel obligated to answer everything.
If you find the time, please visit my blog. I just started it with the same intents that you started your blog: just to get some thoughts in writing. I currently have no known readers, so feel free to comment, also!
May God bless your heart with peace and guidance!
J.D. Cashion
Wycliffe Bible Translators – West Africa
Currently in Duncanville, Texas
You have a nice blog. I’ve enjoyed looking round it some this morning.
~Kelsey
http://setapart.wordpress.com
Thanks Kelsey, your blog looks good, too.
Blessings,
Bob
very interesting, but I don’t agree with you
Idetrorce
Dear Fundy,
Interesting. I’m a fundamentalist, but of the Pentecostal persuasion. I’d like to hear more from you, since I still consider myself fundamental. You have a great looking blog, and I look forward to investigating it further. I look forward to writing on more spiritual issues on my newly started blog Common Sensibilities. Right now, most of my blogs are political for Mike Huckabee.
Nice blog!
Mine is http://www.commonsensibilities.blogspot.com
Dear Bob, You have an amazing site and an amazing story. Having grown up in a “free will” pentecostal religious background-I was so steeped and blinded by my own desire to have a say in my salvation and subsequent sanctification that I would literally twist scripture to fit what I wanted to believe. I was in exact opposition to the authority and wholeness of the bible. Frankly, I was “plated” my scripture; content to eat from that, but never challenged…or really cared about how the food was prepared. Through the mercy and grace of our dear Saviour, I am receiving sound doctrine and at a church where the word is “rightly divided.” The Holy Spirit has opened my blind, tradition-loving, religious eyes and as one speaker put it-the doctrines of sovereign grace have now multiplied like rabbits in the scripture for me. I found this website when I googled “modern hymns” and am thrilled that you are taking your valuable time to maintain such a site. I hope that those who come from either a sensational or “indyfundy” (IFB) background (which our family has also attended) will pray for wisdom and discernment in their teaching and reverently and gently question the Word that is taught to them. Blessings in Christ to you and yours, Bob-The Noble Family
Point of clarification: In my last post I may have implied that people should question “the Word” in the second to last sentence. I want to correct that last sentence to say that one should never question the accuracy of the “the Word.” It is accurate, relevant and infallible for all ages (both chronologically and numerically). My point was to question the way the Word was presented to you….which is fallible if not doctrinely sound. Thank you for your indulgence in allowing me to correct myself.
Matt,
Thanks for stopping by. Your blog looks good too. Glad you’re supporting Huckabee.
Sorry I didn’t respond sooner, I’ve been battling sickness personally and in the family for a couple weeks.
Let me know if I can help in any way.
Blessings,
Bob Hayton
Thanks for the encouragement, K. Noble. Blessings to you and yours.
Bob
Dear Bob Hayton,
Reformed theology, as I would understand it, would not only challenge Christian fundamentalism but much of what we call Christian orthodoxy in both the Catholic and Reformed religious persuasions. The growing spirit of those calling for reform is a healthy sign that the Holy City, The New Jerusalem, is about to descend. There is more to Scriptural interpretation then arguing over what words mean. As to where one must look in Scripture for answers to the shortfalls of fundamentalism, well, this is the very secret of Revelation itself. The Second Coming involves a deeper interpretation of the Holy Word. The Lord’s “coming with the clouds” represents these deeper teachings within Scripture which are at present quite OBSCURE to Christian fundamentalism. The great red dragon in Revelation actually represents an assemblage of Christians who will resist these new teachings and who have turned doctrine into a monstrosity. You have seen this resistance to reform first hand.
Blessings. The God Guy
http://www.thegodguy.wordpress.com
Hello Bob,
I find myself in a similar situation as you did, except I came from open theism. I was wondering if you wanted to link each other. My blog is mainly focused on getting people connected with Reformed resources on the web: free books available online, sermons, teaching, etc. as well as some personal thoughts and articles.
Hi, my name is Todd and I am a Reformed Christian. I have read some of your posts and your “My Story” letter and agree with a lot of the things I see. I was wondering if you would be willing to take a look at my blog. It is forthetimethatispastsuffices.wordpress.com. I recently started it, mainly as an avenue to lead an online Bible study, and am trying to get the word out about it. I was inspired to do this in order to keep teaching some guys I had taught in my hometown before I moved away this last summer, but I am interested in sharing this study with as many people as possible. We are currently going through 1 Peter and on my blog I have posted both study notes and an audio file of myself going over the first weeks passage. Thanks and good luck in spreading God’s message.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for this website. I plan to read more. My family attended a fundamental Baptist church here in Vancouver for a few months as we were looking for a church with solid teaching that wouldn’t jump on every bandwagon that came along (purpose-driven etc.).
We happen to appreciate the teaching ministry of John MacArthur and John Piper and other solid reformed men of God. Well, when the fb pastor heard that, he said “I would not send my goldfish to that man’s church (John MacArthur)”. He was so vehemently against anything to do with the reformed faith. He also forbade women from being involved in ministry unless they wore a skirt/dress vs pants, and men required a tie to serve in the meetings.
We were hurt by the experience and thankfully now are in a small church where the pastor is a man of humility and stresses truth, but grace also. I feel for those in this particular fb church that are being brought under a yoke of slavery that is legalism, where duty and externals are emphasized and grace is lacking.
Comments #23-25 were imported to this post from my old contact page. I wanted to preserve these comments. (I revamped my old contact page, and now it cannot accept comments.)
I also want to preserve my response to Michelle:
Thanks for sharing your experience, Michelle. Comments like yours keep me in business!
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
Another imported comment:
from Jim Jewell:
Greetings: In doing research on Methodists and Primitive Methodists in Southwest Wisconsin in the era of 1835-1860 I find the term “temperance wine” used. Exactly what was it, grape juice or something else. Thank you. Jim.
I couldn’t find anything online, Jim. I’m guessing from a few things I read that this is a watered down version of wine. It certainly didn’t take off as well as Welch’s juice did.
[...] I received a wonderful comment under my About page. It’s comments like these that keep me going. Thankfully, I’ve [...]
Bob I am a Pastor in Oregon and I am finding your sight a very comforting and refreshing site. It is really helping me through this incredibly difficult time of growth from clutches of fundamentalism’s.
It is hard but my Gods grace he will lead me through this. It feels at times like my foundations are being taken away. Sad isn’t it fundamentalism is a from of idolatry and I could not even see it.
Thank you
Able
Bob I am a Pastor in Oregon and I am finding your sight a very comforting and refreshing site. It is really helping me through this incredibly difficult time of growth from clutches of fundamentalism’s.
It is hard but my Gods grace he will lead me through this. It feels at times like my foundations are being taken away. Sad isn’t it fundamentalism is a from of idolatry and I could not even see it.
Thank you
Able
Somewhat ironically, the closest Reformed Baptist church to me (meets less than a mile from our house) is also Fundy-leaning. By that I mean, *all* the women have long hair, no makeup, long dresses, etc. Although they like and appreciate Piper, to whatever extent he might endorse certain recommendations of abstaining from certainly worldly activities (e.g., watching TV), they seem to take those things to their legalistic extremes. When we visited, it felt like a rewind to the days my family was into Bill Gothard.
This really bums me out. I would really like to have one close to me that I could attend close by (there is one I might consider, but it’s a 35 minute drive). OTOH, there is an Orthodox Presbyterian Church launching in our area – again, ironically, using the same rented facility as the Reformed Baptists (the Baptists are in the morning, the Presbyterians are in the evening). Even though I remain unconvinced of Pedobaptism, I am WAY more comfortable with the Presbyterians.
Anyway – although I wasn’t specifically raised as a Fundy, the church I was saved in (S. Baptist) was Fundy-leaning. By defining way more than the scripture itself clearly defines, it ended tripping me up later in life (e.g., high school). God is marvelously faithful and I am learning to walk by Faith for His justification *and* sanctification.
Love your blog. Hope you don’t mind but I’m going to add it to my blog list!
Thanks, Ron. I hope you stick around. Good to have another reader! I’ll have to check out your blog, too.
Bob.
I have put up a post from my buddy David over at Contend with some more info on Unlimited Atonement from the Reformed Camp.
Take a look if you want…good stuff…
Here it is:
The Reformed Doctrine of Unlimited Atonement
Hope all is well.
Sir,
I agree with most of what you are saying. However, I do like IFB churches. I consider myself fundamental. In fact, I like what Dr. Hyles did for fundamentalism. I know he’s not perfect, but he was a Godly man.
That being said, I do believe that women should not wear pants. and I do read from the KJV only. Not that other translations are bad, because some have better translated verses than the KJV, but I do believe it to be the most accurately translated as a whole.
Lastly, I am a four-point calvinist. I think that you have to believe in the points he outlines.
I guess although I do like some of the ideas that IFB churches teach, I don’t agree with all of their teachings; you shouldn’t agree with everyone on everything.
However, If I had to choose between an extremely liberal church and an extremely conservative church, I would rather error on the side of too conservative.
I understand what you mean about some of the churches going overboard but I do believe that they love God.
I have a lot of thoughts on this. I know that I have jumbled up my ideas here…email me and we’ll talk.
I appreciate your website and your blog. I may not agree with everything on it, but it is insightful. I am not an IFB, nor was I raised in an IFB environment but I do agree with the fundamentals pointed out in Scripture. I appreciate the IFB attempt to go by Scripture. I am not a Dr Hyles fan though. Any church and anyone can take Scripture out of context and put more meaning into it. Clinging to Christ inspite of man’s error is a life long lesson. I love the Doctrines of Grace.
Or maybe you are confused.
I;ll be happy to teach you the Truth or rebuke you.
Why does that old phrase about a fish needing a bicyle and steroids in baseball come to mind when I look at this site?
Maybe I’m just ignorant. Please take my comments in a friendly manner and not critical. Here’s what I’m driving at. I think things like doctrine are important (Calvinism vs. non-Calvinism, etc.). I see you addressing these serious concerns, but then I see things like music and pants on women on your website? Maybe a complete moron, but what are these issues doing amongst your serious topics?
Here’s an analogy. With the economy sinking and the near collapse of it, why would Congress take the time to address issues like whether a certain pro baseball player took steroids back in 1979? Don’t you think that would be rubbing it in our faces that they would be so concerned with such foolish, immaterial, insipid topics in such serious times as this? That’s what blew me away about your website? Is it serious, or is it a satircal parody? Why would you talk about very serious things like doctrine, then all of a sudden in midstream switch gears and talk about women wearing pants? Is the joke on us, the readers? I don’t get it. That would be like the news anchor talking about whether the groundhog saw his shadow or not BEFORE the real and actual and serious news of the day.
Maybe the joke is on me or I am some type of completely ignorant moron. I had no idea music and whether women wore pants were actual issues. This is all so confusing!
Bob jr,
I’m a Bob jr. not Jones, too. Your comment makes me think I should take the time to update my about section on my blog a bit more. If you aren’t familiar with independent Baptist fundamentalism, you won’t understand discussion on these kinds of issues. For me it used to be an issue, I had to think through it. For many it is still a big issue, whether women wear pants or not, whether one uses only the KJV or not, whether one uses “the rock beat” in music or not.
I discuss the issues because I try to help those struggling with them. I do tend to give more time to more important theology (I think), the pants discussion is limited to 2 or 3 posts at best of the hundreds I’ve put up here. Sadly there are many, actually thousands of churches, where this is a big issue in America still today.
Welcome to my weird world of being a former independent fundamentalist!
Bob Hayton
Thank you for you diligence with this site. I am a reformed fundy myself. I grew up in IBF churches so did my husband. It wasn’t until 4 years ago did we realize we were frogs swimming in a pot of boiling water….remember the frog experiment?
We had a very painful time when we left the IBF church we attended. In our area there are many IBF churches who fellowship with one another. To make a long story short, we were listed as heretics by our then pastor because we questioned him on “baptist baptism”. We were basically asked to leave since we didn’t agree with him on the issue.
Not only did churches in our area break fellowship with us, but so did family as well. Both sides of our family are staunce IBFers.
We have been told everything from…”we no longer share in the family faith”….”we are nothing but silly little people who never attended Bible college, so therefore we know nothing”….”Who do you think you are to question a man of God?” etc
All this because we left the IBF church due to doctrinal issues. We didn’t leave in a huff, we left quietly and wished to keep relations intact.
Looking back, it was the best thing we ever did! We now walk in the Spirit and not according to doctrines of men. We attend a truly God centered church.
I accepted Christ as my Savior and LORD and have a hunger and thirst to be formed into His image……not mans!
This site is a blessing to me as I work through alot of the pain that comes from being yoked in the bondage of legalism.
Sandi,
I’m glad this site is a blessing to you. Thanks for taking the time to let me know that it encouraged you.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
You have a great background which gives you a balance which “reformed” people don’t always seem to have. I liked as much as I have so far read. I would like to be linked on your site. I have site, a quaterly ezine forwhich I have been writing meditations since 3/96. “Focusing on God:His Character, Purposes, and Ways” I went to Westminster Seminary in the 1970’s. John Frame was one of my teachers. I came across your site from the “Get out of Jail Free” card when I was looking for an image for my next meditation (April 2009) on the “peace of God”. Don’t be confused by my FORMER email address on the bottom of all my meditations prior to the April issue. For obvious reasons I am busy right now. I hope to get back to your site soon.
Love the rotating pictures atop the blog every time I refresh the page. Will J. Frank Norris ever show up? He’s the big name down here in Fort Worth!
I might add more someday. I need to tweak one. Right now I’m limited to 9 until I figure out how the theme works better. I thought about J Frank, but for now, we’ll let his heir Jack Hyles have pride of place….
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
If a person is condemned for not believing, what is it a person is supposed to believe that if he doesn’t believe he is condemned. The elect are saved by believing that Christ died for them. If Christ did not die for the nonelect how can the nonelect be condemned for not believing that Christ died for them if in fact He did not die for them? Are they condemned for not believing a lie(that Christ died for them)?
Just what exactly is a person supposed to believe that will in effect save them and if they don’t believe will condemn them?
A person needs to believe the gospel message that Jesus saves. They need to believe Jesus’ work on the cross is all that is needed to cover their sins. This is true for all. Whatever “limited atonement” means, it doesn’t mean anyone cannot have the gospel preached to them. The ones who respond in faith, are technically the ones Jesus’ died for. But His death was intended to make the atonement offered to all, who would believe. He just happens to know each and every one who will believe.
We don’t know that, and so from our perspective, Jesus died for all. But from God’s perspective, Jesus’ death was substitutionary for a specific group of people- the elect. Just so you know, Calvinists have long debated what exactly this point in the system means. Most prefer the term definite atonement or particular redemption. The words “limited atonement” were only a late development with the birth of the TULIP acronym that dates back only to the early 1900s.
Many misunderstand this point. If you look at the articles on my site about it, you’ll see I haven’t firmly landed exactly on my understanding of it either.
Thanks, and God bless,
Bob Hayton
May I ask it this way?
What exactly are the nonelect condemned for not believing.
They are condemned for not believing something, what is that something?
Thanks for your input!
Jim,
Salvation is more than just believing doctrine x. It is committing your life to Christ. It is trusting Him to save you. Believing is coming is receiving Christ. That is clear throughout the Gospel of John. So they must believe Christ’s sacrificie can cover their sin and provide atonement. They must believe it and apply that offering to their own lives. Jesus said all who come to him will in no wise be cast away. But only those drawn by the Father actually will come.
Hope this helps somewhat. It’s not that I must believe Jesus died for me in order to be saved. I must believe Jesus’ death is the only remedy of sin. I must believe Jesus died so that all who trust in him will be saved. That is what must be believed. As a Calvinist I believe this. Jesus died with the effect that anyone who trusts in Jesus’ death, will be saved.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob
Bob
You wrote:
It’s not that I must believe Jesus died for me in order to be saved.
How can you say you believe and trust in Jesus Christ if you don’t believe he died for you personally?
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for ME.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for US.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for OUR sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
The centrality of the Gospel is that Christ died for MY sins.
You said twice that one must believe or trust in that Jesus died, but salvation is trusting that Christ died FOR MY SIN, that He took my place on the cross.
If someone rejects that Christ died for them they are rightly condemned.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
The nonelect will end up in hell for not believing Christ died for them – they will die in the sins
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for IF YE BELIEVE NOT that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Again I ask did you really mean to say:
It’s not that I must believe Jesus died for me in order to be saved.
As a Catholic I formerly believed Christ died for sinners, but I wasn’t saved til I trusted Him alone and believed that He died for MY SINS. He took my place!! He paid the price for MY sin.
Christ died for even the false teachers:
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
They denied that the Lord bought them and thus were condemned. By the way, that word ‘bought’ is the Greek word agorazō which is the same word used elsewhere speaking of our redemption:
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Sorry if this is rather lengthy but there was much to be said.
By the way, I am no longer a Catholic which may not have been clear from above
Jim,
Speaking of Christians, the Scripture is clear Jesus died for them. That is the Gospel. As John makes clear, however, believing on Christ is what saves, not believing Christ died for you. Every true believer comes to Jesus believing in his death as a remedy for their personal sin, so in that sense they believe Jesus died for them. In fact Jesus died for everyone who will come to him. So if you come to him, you do believe he died for you.
This is not incompatible with believing Jesus died in a special sense for the elect in a way he didn’t die for the lost. See John 10. As for 2 Pet. 1, what does “buy” mean, if the purchase didn’t result in those purchased being saved? There is much more that could be said on 2 Pet. 1 and has been. All this is to say, I don’t really disagree with you, but I do. You are pushing a point to try to say “limited atonement” denies the plain sense of the gospel. That is false.
Please let’s not continue this debate any more on my “about” page. Rather, find a post where I deal with this issue, and deal with what my post asserts. Look through my category listing or search through my blog using the search feature. This whole debate is just crowding out my about page right now.
Thanks for understanding,
Bob