Comments on: Minimizing the Gospel through Excessive Separation

By: D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Unity across Eschatological Positions « Fundamentally Reformed

Mon, 20 Jul 2009 15:20:57 +0000

[...] I think this does shape how we approach Scripture (or how we approach Scripture shapes this issue). So it is emphatically important. But we should be careful to elevate our preferences and doctrinal conclusions on a matter that is not crystal clear, over and above the points of doctrine which are universally held and powerfully clear. When you elevate every position to the place of major doctrine, you minimize what Scripture presents as truly central. [...]

By: The Church is Bigger than you Think « Working out Salvation with Fear and Trembling

Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:50:42 +0000

[...] Bob Hayton’s “Minimizing the Gospel through Excessive Separation” for a helpful discussion of the problem of excessive [...]

By: Appreciating and Assessing Fundamentalism « Fundamentally Reformed

Appreciating and Assessing Fundamentalism « Fundamentally Reformed — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:37:17 +0000

[...] also was pleased to see someone make the same point I did about the place of the Gospel as it relates to extreme separation. Sometimes, their practical applications appear to be as important as (or even more important than) [...]

By: The Concept of “Fundamental Doctrines”: Modern Reductionism or Historic Protestant Doctrine? « Fundamentally Reformed

Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:42:37 +0000

[...] I’ve been debating with Pastor Kent Brandenburg on the appropriateness of ranking doctrines as fundamental/essential and secondary/tertiary. Dr. Albert Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, gives a positive treatment of this: he terms it “Theological Triage“. Brandenburg contradicts this view, believing it belittles the importance of all doctrine, and our obligations to hold to sound doctrine and separate from those who don’t. I side with Mohler, as well as John Piper and D.A. Carson (and others), and recently posted my belief that excessive separation actually belittles the Gospel. [...]

By: Piper & Carson on Essential Doctrines « Fundamentally Reformed

Piper & Carson on Essential Doctrines « Fundamentally Reformed — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 23:47:15 +0000

[...] warning about “being prophetic from the margins” was similar to my contention that majoring on the minors belittles the Gospel. Also, if anyone can’t view the video online, or download the original video, they can read [...]

By: Essential Doctrines « Fundamentally Reformed

Essential Doctrines « Fundamentally Reformed — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 15:23:44 +0000

[...] whether doctrines can be secondary, or if they should all be essential. In my post “Minimizing the Gospel through Excessive Separation“, I argue that only fundamental doctrines are essential, and when we separate over secondary [...]

By: Kent Brandenburg

Kent Brandenburg — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 19:58:29 +0000

Grace,

Our church and me fellowships based on what we believe and practice. We’re independent. I don’t think we just cut people off—we’re supposed to minister reconciliation. We give them due process, which is essentially laid out in Mt. 18. The church (which happens to have a bishop, 1 Tim. 3:1) is the pillar and ground of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15), nothing bigger than that. Our church chooses what we fellowship and break fellowship upon. I have a lot of influence on that as the pastor (see pastoral espistles).

Charity (love, agape) is what God says it is, and so it is holy. Love doesn’t rejoice in iniquity. Love speaks the truth. Separation is love. Shaming a disobedient brother is not incompatible with love. His sin is damaging.

Gotta go.

By: Grace

Grace — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:37:30 +0000

“The key is to keep the body pure and we do that by dividing over all unrepentant disobedience.”

This is a true statement. However, the Biblical definition of unrepentant disobedience must be clear, not “doubtful”.

I think Will Dudding’s last post on this is helpful, as he calls some of the issues that people (especially Baptists) divide over “pseudo doctrines”. These must be the “doubtful” or unessential things that we have been talking about.

Now, I don’t agree on everything with Mr. Dudding, or Bob, or you. But I wouldn’t hesitate to take the Lord’s supper with any of y’all, or counsel evangelistically (I’m sure you’ll have a field day with that one) at the local mission together, or many things.

Why? Because we are unified in the Gospel, give Liberty in disutable matters, and are generallly charitable with one another (supposed to be at any rate) despite our differences.

Would you?

By: Kent Brandenburg

Kent Brandenburg — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:21:04 +0000

So “Grace,” you’re an anonymous man. It’s a handle; not your name. Who says I was thin skinned? I pointed out a poor argument, ad hominem. I think one needs to be pointed out when one happens. I’ll grant you referenced Scripture with ‘all those who call upon the name of the Lord,’ but that doesn’t mention the church at all. Saved people are the family of God and the kingdom of God, but they aren’t the church. You must be baptized (Acts 2:41) to be added to the church. Those who call is soteriological and the church is ecclesiological.

Bob and Grace, because I think that what I write here would speak to both of you,

You point out that people had disagreements. That doesn’t establish a historical doctrine of essentials and non-essentials. I’ve written a whole post on your 1 Cor. 15, first importance, interpretation. It’s a new interpretation to back up this new doctrine.

I’m not going to go over the Scriptural position on “the body of Christ.” The only definition in Scripture is when Paul says “ye are the body of Christ,” in 1 Cor. 12:27 and it speaks of the church at Corinth. The body is a metaphor to show how the church, which is local only, functions. I’m not concerned about divisions for the sake of the body, the only body. Paul would have been contradicting himself when in 1 Cor 11 when he said there must needs be divisions. The key is to keep the body pure and we do that by dividing over all unrepentant disobedience.

There’s only one way to bring unity and that is by emphasizing everything. Unity is based upon truth. We don’t bring true unity without focusing on it. Everything else is a faux unity for the sake of a non-scriptural, invisible something or other.

By: Grace

Grace — Fri, 08 Feb 2008 13:55:01 +0000

Kent,

You have exactly highlighted the emphasis of Bob’s post by your string of questions. To be sure, your questions, in response to my statements of fact (which I intentionally worded that way to contadict doctrine I have been “taught” in IFB churches) are valid and legitimate. They ought to be asked. Your questions however, if asked to 1,000 true believers, who search the Scriptures, and desire to honor God, and stand by what they believe, will likely draw out several different positions.

What is “doubtful”, as Bob put it so succinctly above, is that we cannot say at this time, conclusively that your church has it right on pants, or my church has it right on music, etc. What we can say is that WE BELIEVE that we have it right in these issues.

Having said that, it is our responsibility to provide for unity over the essentials which, I am sure you understand are questions that can be answered clearly by Scripture.

Is Jesus God?
Is he also man?
Did he die as a payment for my sins?
How do I effect his payment on my behalf? etc.

You get the drift.

Honestly, I was not trying to insinuate that you do not care about “your family” or “your ekklesia”. Did you notice that I made a reference to the church universal in my quote of Scripture? (and you said I had none) …All those that in every place call upon the name of hte Lord…

Can we really care about Christ’s body if we divide over these unessentials. Don’t we really minimize Christ’s work and the Gospel by these divisive tendencies? Didn’t Christ say we all are one in Him?

To not answer these questions is critical.

by the by, I wouldn’t have thought that a jackhammer like yourself would be so thin skinned. Please forgive me if you think I disrespected you. )

Your brother in Christ