A few weeks ago I received the following comment on my blog:
I am not sure what your blog was talking about, but I gather that you understand about the strictness of fundamental Baptist churches.
My son is in one, and I am gathering information about this church. It is independent and the pastor controls everything the members do. I only see my son Thanksgiving and Christmas. Probably not at all now, since I will not attend his church. I was saved in that church and immediately left soon after, when I realized what it was about. I am attending another church. If you can help me, I would appreciate it. —A Reader
I wish the predicament that this dear lady finds herself in were uncommon. But, sadly, this is all too common in hyper fundamentalism. I have encountered several examples to a greater or lesser degree myself, personally. And I am sure my readers have their own sad stories to add here.
Long before I ever made a break from fundamentalism, I felt this was wrong. A certain relative of mine treated his wife’s parents very badly—with great disrespect, I believe. Although at the time they were driving a long distance to go to a fundamental Baptist church they could agree with, he apparently viewed them as not good enough for him to spend any time with them. The decency of visiting and loving the family God gave him was downplayed and evidently separation and loyalty to his own church and movement emphasized. But hey, isn’t Deut. 5:16 still Bible?
My Dad always warned me to be on the lookout for any emphasis to distrust your family or to not go home over the holidays. And indeed among some students, the implication was that if you stayed over the summer, or if you stayed over the Christmas break that you were a more devoted Christian. Or at least that is the impression one could get (especially if they did not come from one of the churches which strongly supported the college).
I can’t say the church and college I went to explicitly taught us to distrust your family or to separate from them. In fact they emphasized that we go home and be a help to our churches. But in the teaching they gave concerning the family, they made it very clear that your family could be very wrongly influenced by your relatives and you needed to be extremely careful. Generally, I would agree, to an extent. But that advice was often taken to an extreme.
People whose children are still faithful Christians, albeit not fundamentalists (or not as much a fundamentalist as the parents would like), practice a firm separation from them. It is unnatural and ungodly. And yes, I have heard first hand of such goings on. And in this lady’s example above, she is facing such separation from her children.
Can’t strict fundamentalists appreciate that God is at work in their families’ lives—even if they aren’t fundamentalists? Can’t they agree on the big things like love for Christ, mutual faith, salvation, the fundamentals, etc., and then agree to disagree on the minor issues which define them as fundamentalists?
Does anyone else see this as a big problem for hyper fundamentalists (IFBx)? Is the problem wider than just this segment of fundamentalism? Does anyone else think that this trait of IFBx is one which seems very similar to a cultish characteristic?
I am interested in your responses. And lastly, does anyone have any hope to offer this reader? I encourage her to look to Christ and trust Him for support and love. She should also get involved in a good church where she can be ministered to. And then, she should try to love her son and family and try to show them she is a dedicated Christian, albeit not a fundamentalist. Any other thoughts?
Interesting post Bob. It reminds me of a very recent comment made to me by a staunch King James Onlyist. I’m someone who wasn’t even exposed to extreme fundamentalism until much later in life when, while looking up material to teach a class for church on scripture (inspiration, inerrancy, manuscripts etc.), I discovered the world of King James Onlyism.
On a yahoo discussion board on Bible versions someone recently told me that as an “mver” (modern versionist), I can’t love Jesus. It’s worth quoting here:
———————
Can MVers Love Jesus?
In a word: no.
John 14:23-24 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.
How can we love Jesus and keep His words, when we don’t have His words? If all we have is errant copies, we don’t have His words. We cannot keep His sayings, no matter how badly we want to, and we can’t love Jesus.
To keep God’s words would include obeying them as well as reading, studying, and memorizing them, which would require actually HAVING them.
A Burger King version adherent doesn’t even HAVE the pure word of God. Thus he can’t read, study, or memorize the pure word of God. Therefore, a modern versionist cannot love Jesus, since he CANNOT KEEP God’s pure words.
In fact, a mv advocate doesn’t even believe GOD could keep His own words, much less than we could. If an mv advocate claims he can keep God’s pure words, even though God couldn’t, he is admitting that he is an authority over God and God’s word.
———————————- end quote
After posting on that list for about 5 years, this was the straw that broke the camels’ back for me. It crystalized for me what I sensed all along- this person, and many others like him on that list have completely lost sight of who it is that saves and calls us. For many of them, their very ability to love Christ is actually contingent on their use of the KJV only, and in believing that it’s the ONLY pure word of God. I was floored by this mentality, having known Christ and walked with him the last 24 years with a love for him that springs only from the love he first showed me- all while using my “new age” NIV!
This person’s statement convinces me that were I to try attending his church for any length of time, I too would experience the judgment, condemnation and rejection that you described. I believe the very heart of the gospel is lost by this way of thinking, and I think it also displays a symptom of a man-centered gospel in which we must contribute something not only in our conversion, but also to maintain our acceptance by God. This person is also staunchly anti-Calvinistic, which makes perfect sense to me.
Hi Bob,
Unfortunately, I have heard the same story myself. Our family attends a Baptist church which teaches a reformed view of salvation. We have been here for 6 years and have grown more in our love for Christ than all other years in IFB churches.
We have multiple friends who attend our church who have come from IFBx backgrounds. Their testimonies also show great growth. However, their families cannot get past the fact that we are Calvinistic and use contemporary music in our worship service. This absolutely floors me. Their (grown) children are growing in their faith, rearing thier own children to love and honor God and all the older generation can focus on is the externals!
I have couseled some to talk to their families about their heart. Say something like, “If you see my love for Christ growing and my devotion to His Glory increasing, then can you please be happy that we are happy at this church? If you see my life slipping into sin, then be concerned. But if all you see is me wearing pants and our family listening to different music than yours, then please see it as a difference we have, but know that we still love and honor the same God.”
I agree that family is important and that we should try to do everything to maintain a loving relationship. However, if your family chooses to distance themselves from you for differing beliefs, then so be it. Just make sure that it is them doing the distancing, not you.
“In Germany, the Nazis first came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me…By that time there was no one to speak up for anyone.”
The Reverend Martin Niemoller, I Didn’t Speak Up
Hope for this reader. I would tell her that persecution comes to those who follow hard after Christ. Matthew 10- 34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
I am a preachers son. My Dad graduated from a fundamentalist school (Arlington Baptist College). He then went on to and graduated from Dallas Seminary. My uncle and cousin are fundy pastors. They told my Dad when he went to Dallas Seminary (Home of the NIV and Ryrie Study Bible NASB) that he would be doing a dis-service to the kingdom. My uncle told my Mom that she should re-think her salvation because her Sunday School Teacher used a Living Bible to lead her to Christ. My family had a tremendous fight and fallout due to the fact that my Dad dared read his Greek NT for study before a sermon. I watched a man in our fundy Church tell everyone leaving my Dad’s Sunday School Class that my Dad was reading from a “Satanic Bible”, (it was the NASB) which was tramautic for a elementary kid to hear about his dad.
I am saddened when this type of tragedy strikes at a family. My only comfort is that the Lord Jesus himself, who was denied by friends and kindred, left his Throne on High to save a wretch like me. He told me persecution would come. He described the type of persecution in Matthew 10, and I take comfort in the fact that in the exercise of his Providence and Sovereignty, he is glorified. Those who follow hard after Christ, will endure persecution and broken relationships with Family is one of those ways that Christians suffer. I’ve seen it, I’ve experienced it, and that doesn’t help the hurt. It still hurts. The only comfort anyone can have is in the Mighty Providence of God. Some of His providences are frowning to be sure. But His Providence is all we have. To know He is somehow working his Providence out in our lives is at least a little comfort for me, and I hope for this dear lady.
Oh, how the imputed guilt of Adam, and the inherited corruption of our very moral natures has misshapen our behavior, our families, our churches, our cultures, our societies — the very created order itself. We and the world groan, waiting for the day when Christ returns and the remaining vestiges of sin which Christ has already conquered are removed from our existence, once and for all (Romans 8:18-24).
It hurts to see how our loved ones, who are fellow believers, unduly separate themselves from us, disregarding the very real communion we have with them in Christ, adding conditions to this fellowship which are not ordained in his Word (Ephesians 4:1-16). The only advice that I find heals the damage is to persevere in looking to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of your faith, who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is now seated on the right hand of the Father (Hebrews 12:1-2). I find it easier to continue moving forward when I raise my sight from that which would hinder my progress and look to my Goal–from justification in Christ, through sanctification in Christ (in which we all find ourselves being transformed to the image of Christ; and one of the chisels God uses is the experience of wrongly suffering at the hands of others, be they enemies of the Gospel, brothers in Christ, friends or family), and on to eternal glorification in Christ! This is the truth taught in Romans 5:1-5.
If Christ has obeyed, died and risen for you, and your children, then you have already embarked on a lifelong journey which you have his promise will reach its appointed end sharing the glory into which our great Friend and Brother has already entered as our First fruits (1 Corinthians 15:22). Though the process is long, remind yourself that the grace he has bestowed on you and your family is sufficient to sustain you during this sojourn in a still-fallen world (2 Corinthians 12:7-10). Time seems slow, but compared to the eternity we will all share in Christ, TOGETHER, it will be but a drop in the bucket! There is an element of such division between myself and some of those closest to me. This is what keeps me going. Keeping Christ at the center of my attention. We must preach the gospel to ourselves, study it, sing it, talk about it, follow its example in our own behavior. Delight yourself in the Lord, and one day, on his time table, he will give you the desire of your heart (Psalm 37:4). The old cliché is true: he won’t be too early, he won’t be too late, he’s always right on time!
Perhaps God’s providence will return you and your son to intimate, loving togetherness someday on this side of glory. Pray for it, work towards it, but do not set your hope on it–set your hope only on Christ in you and him, the hope of eternal glory (Colossians 1:27), and God will impart the joy and strength (Nehemiah 8:10) in him you need to love your son through this season of separation. Seasons do change! Your good, wise and loving Creator and Redeemer has set the Calendar, and time is ever moving in that direction. Ultimately, it will play out for the good of your son and you and for the glory of God (Romans 8:28).
Oh, soul, are you weary and troubled?
No light in the darkness you see?
There’s light for a look at the Savior,
And life more abundant and free.
Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace.
Through death into life everlasting
He passed, and we follow Him there;
Over us sin no more hath dominion—
For more than conquerors we are!
Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace.
His Word shall not fail you—He promised;
Believe Him, and all will be well:
Then go to a world that is dying,
His perfect salvation to tell!
Turn your eyes upon Jesus
Look full in his wonderful face
And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
In the light of his glory and grace.
Great comments, everyone. I do hope that our reader stops by and gets encouraged from all of these thoughts.
As Steve points out, it is a problem in how the strict fundamentalists view the very basics of the Christian life that so greatly hinders their fellowship with others. It is not easy to fix such a big problem. But I believe the thoughts others have given might help give focus and help in doing all we can on this side of the line to encourage healthy spiritual fellowship with estranged family members on the other side.
I also realize that this problem is faced by many who comment here or have their own blogs, although in a lesser way, perhaps. Strained family relationships are part of my burden to bear as well, being one result of my departure from strict fundamentalism.
God give us all grace to look to Christ and hope in Him, and may He bless us with ever deepening, growing, and improving spiritual fellowship with our loved ones.
Bob
I’d heartily recommend James Spurgeon’s book “The Texas Baptist Crucible: Tales from the Temple”; this is also available online at James Spurgeon’s website: (http://holycall.com/jspurgeon/tales/TFTT1.HTM).He went through an IFBx college in Texas and went through a very similar experience to this reader’s. James found grace through God’s Word and liberation from the chains of works-oriented ‘sanctification’. The college & church he was a part of had also manipulated him into thinking that he wasn’t being spiritual if he went home to his family for holidays and recesses. The ‘man of God’ has to have his ministry become successful, and in order to do this, the IFBx college James went to taught that it wasn’t necessary to become close to church members or staff, let alone your own family. I’m not sure if they are aware of ‘honor your father or mother’ in such a ‘church’!
While I was in college, I went to an IFBx type of church in Sarasota, FL during my sophomore year. The pastor asked me to come down every weekend (without seeing my own parents who lived only a few miles away) to work at the church. I slept at the church overnight on Saturdays rather than staying at home. Although my family was unsaved at the time (and, unknown to me, I was also), they viewed my behavior as somewhat bizarre, and our relationship was strained at best. My parents would give me $20 for each weekend so that I could drive the seventy miles from college to this church every weekend (the church didn’t give me any financial support). My grades that year were abysmal, and I got straight C’s my first semester of my sophomore year. I had to get out of this situation in order to get my grades back to where they were before (usually B’s and some C’s), let alone get out of this constant working ‘relationship’ with the church. I had Saturday bus ministry as well as Sunday School, and I was also working with the youth ministry. I would drive down early on Saturday mornings and not return to college until late Sunday nights. When it came time for me to leave this church, my parents were able to back me up and I told the pastor that I wasn’t able to continue. He was discouraged about me leaving, but at least he accepted my departure by the end of that year. I was very much burned out; I had college (which was strenuous enough with a full time work load), a part time job while at college, and then a fully loaded weekend at this church. I burned out.
My junior year was at least better, as I had worked with a church near my college, but I still worked almost as much as I had the previous year.
It was not until the beginning of my senior year in college that Christ came to save me by His grace. I graduated with a BA degree in Pastoral Studies, and went off to an IFB (not IFBx) seminary in Pennsylvania. All through that time I had not visited my family, usually only twice a year, and had missed my nephews growing up. All this for the ‘glory’ of working my way to sanctification. A man-centered methodology to ‘get right with God’ was as unbiblical as the notion of gaining salvation by works. It is by His grace that we are sanctified, not by our works. We are unable to do anything without Him, and it is in Him we are motivated toward doing any good that pleases a holy God.
I really enjoyed reading the other responses on this thread. It’s necessary because a lot of people, like this reader, who are hurting because of the damage done my ill-intentioned churches who place a heavy emphasis of working rather than resting in Him.
Speaking as one with experience in an IFBx cult church for 10 years, and following the council of the Pastor (council based on twisting of scripture, manipulation, and playing on fear), our family had no involvment with most family members for 6 years. How we deeply regret that decision. We were new Christians with little understanding of the Bible.
Our story is long, so I will refrain from getting into the details, but I wanted to leave an encouragement to this reader. The best book you could possibly read in order to properly know how to talk with family members inside these bible based cults, is “Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves” by Steven Hassan. Although this book is not written by a Christian author, I have yet to read any other material that perfectly describes the means and the method of destructive mind control cults, whether bible based or not. This book gives a method of intervention to help family members realize they are not thinking for themselves. Along with this book, much prayer is definately needed!
For clarification, I do not believe all IFB churches are cults, in fact, the Lord so graciously allowed our family to find a GOOD Independent Baptist Church. The Pastor and his wife have introduced us to the likes of CH Spurgeon, John Piper, RC Sproul, Jonathan Edwards, etc. It is very exciting!
I appreciate this web site and Bob’s story. They are encouraging to a family that is on the same road!
Becky,
Thanks for the tip on the book! Glad you appreciate my site. Glad you stumbled across it! Come back as often as you can.
I do agree there are many good IFB churches, sadly some are more like cults though.
Blessings in Christ,
Bob Hayton
I’ll warn you ahead of time, if you don’t care for sarcasm, or don’t care to read the “Diary of a Mad Former IFBxer”, please don’t read this post, as I will be using this forum to finally put into words some things that have eaten away at me for quite some time.
I was reared in the IFBx movement, attended an IFBx school from 1st-12th grades, and attended an IFBx college (HAC in Northwest Indiana). At the age of 26 (more than 10 years ago), I began my journey to break free from what can only be described as the IFBx “bondage”. I still struggle daily with the brainwashing that led me to see God primarily as a judge — someone who was watching me all the time and waiting for the opportunity to beat me down any time I began to stray from the IFBx “straight and narrow”.
Even on my initial departure from the IFBx movement, I was just waiting for God to strike me down, and my pastor at the time simply reinforced these fears by assuring me that I was a worthless nothing doomed to receive only harsh judgement from the Great Almighty for the unforgivable sin of leaving his (the pastor’s) flock (THAT’LL PREACH!). Not to mention the wrath that would fall if I did not pay him immediately for the pyramid marketing scheme he’d insisted I join under him, and let him pay for …
The IFBx movement is full of controlling men (and women) who would likely struggle to properly interpret scripture if Jesus Himself were to speak the Word and tell them what it means face to face. As a matter of fact, I believe most would be quite like the Pharisees and seek only to discredit Him (just as they do anyone who disagrees with their rock solid teachings, which can come only from the KJV, of course). I believe the majority of them don’t even truly know what salvation actually involves (faith+repentance — if He is not Lord, then He is not Savior!).
I can’t tell you the number of IFBx pastors and leaders I have known who have cheated on their wives, come out as homosexuals, abused children, stolen money, been convicted of various crimes, committed suicide, etc. etc. I do believe that the percentage of IFBx leaders who have done so, by percentage, probably outweighs nearly every other Protestant “sect” or “movement”.
For IFBx’ers reading this, don’t be so prideful to believe that the downfall of IFBx leaders “just shows that Satan works the hardest on those who have chosen to faithfully and wholeheartedly serve the Lord!” Closer to the truth is that these fallen leaders harbored some hidden sin (as we all do) and would not allow themselves to be held accountable to mere men who had not attained such a high level of spirituality as themselves.
Even more disturbing than the flood of “IFBx generals” who have fallen is the number of people who were brought up in, or joined the IFBx movement, only to leave it years later, disgusted and fed up with the lunacy they came to recognize as cult-like and controlling. Many of these people harden their hearts to anything spiritual, or anything having to do with God, thanks primarily to these narcissistic leaders and many followers of the IFBx movement.
I even find it difficult to contain the hurt and anger — the pure and powerful regret — of knowing that the things I was taught and experienced were nothing more than standards developed by controlling men who were so full of pride that they interpreted the Bible only in ways that increased their control and influence over the “flock” that followed them. Inherent in these teachings were unfounded “doctrines” that would not permit any person to question them in any area.
The profound effect of the teachings of these men, along with the subsequent divisions which are evident in this forum and many others, both in and outside of the IFBx movement, have led me to a place that I can only describe as exhaustion. This exhaustion is compounded by the ongoing struggle in my mind to break free of not just thoughts of things I was taught in the IFBx movement, but also the inherent, foundational “doctrines” which established in early childhood my perceptions of God and His purpose in my life and in the lives of everyone else He created. These foundations were built by the prideful men and women I described above.
I think the damage of the IFBx movement would be difficult to overstate. At least many who have never experienced Christ are sometimes open to hearing what He has to offer by people who share His love with them by the way they live. People who experience the IFBx movement (notice that I did not say people who have experienced Christ) often wind up alienated by pastors posing as pundits, and wind up with little or no desire to know God or to allow Him to be a daily part of their lives, much less darken the door of any church.
If you’d like to respond to me directly, please feel free to do so. My name is Marc Barnes and my e-mail is truthmade plain @ hotmail.com (without the spaces).
Hi
In my walk with the Lord for the past 30 years I have moved occasionally and therefore I’ve held membership in 5 IFB churches
and I simply can’t relate to what
I’ve been reading on this website. Every church that I’ve attended had great preachers and members. Sure their we’re a few rules, all churches have them, but nothing harmful, just Bible. True, they were all KJV, but it wasn’t a requirment. its just easier when everyone uses the same bible. In my present church, our pastor 7 his wife are great folks. To be sure their are “bad apples” in every bunch, but I would submit to you that they are far and away the exception, and not the rule………….God Bless
Hi….(I’ve added a few remarks to my original e-mail)
In my walk with the Lord for the past 30 years I have moved occasionally and therefore I’ve held membership in 5 IFB churches
and I simply can’t relate to what
I’ve been reading on this website. Every church that I’ve attended had great preachers and members. Sure their we’re a few rules, all churches have them, but nothing harmful, just Bible. True, they were all KJV, but it wasn’t a requirment. its just easier when everyone uses the same bible. In my present church, our pastor & his wife are great folks. To be sure their are “bad apples” in every bunch, but I would submit to you that they are far and away the exception, and not the rule, don’t confuse Fundamentalism with Hyper-Fundamentalism.It appears that many “Fundy-Haters” really appear to be filled with pride, and look down their noses at regular KJV Christians…I believe that soul winners like Billy Sunday & Billy Graham used the KJV, so it can’t be all that bad……God Bless