If He has: “dealt to EVERY MAN the measure of FAITH” then you are saying (in your post) that every man has been regenerated and therein ALL are Elect. So what is the need for the mentioning of the Elect in scripture if ALL are already regenerated.

If we are predestined to death or life (one way or the other) then why are we all dealt a measure of faith especially if some are to be predestined to death.

I do not think you would need faith to blindly fall into the spiritual death mentioned in the Bible.

I’m about a 1/3 of the way through Piper’s article – interesting stuff! I’ll keep plodding through…

I could tell that you were versed (ha! no pun intended) on Calvinism somewhat, that’s why I enjoyed reading your stuff so much. Please know that I’m going through all your references, but it will take some time to ponder what you have said and be like a Berean . At this point I still don’t agree with you on many points, however, it’s been so long since I believed in free will the way some do, and at that time, I didn’t really have verses like you do to back up my claims. It’s only since my revival which led to an understanding and then belief in Calvinist points (4 or 5 pts, don’t know yet…) that verses have come crashing to the forefront. So in all fairness, I need to look at verses from both sides. That’s why your entries have been such a big help to me, you’re sharpening my “iron” .

I don’t know if it makes you feel any better, but no need to worry about me – I share Christ because of a passion he gave me after my revival, but sharing beliefs on election with believers as a whole is something I do not usually do. I think John 16:12 is a pretty wise verse to live by for many Christians regarding many things (“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear”), as well as a verse another fellow-believer shared with me today that *really* blessed me, and it sounds like the people at this church were disobeying this in spades!

Col. 4:5-6 – Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.

I would extend that advice for how we act to “insiders” as well! Believers are at every stage in the Christian walk, and it’s either selfish, or foolish, of us to talk of the deeper things of the faith with those who are still children in the faith – a sure way to cause them to stumble and we know how God feels about that!!!

Again, I’m glad you shaerd this with us, and I’m so sorry to hear this happened – “hyper Calvinism” for sure. My teacher said it well last night – you can take both sides to the extreme, and they are both dangerous.

Oh, by the way, I just heard last night from my teacher to study “regeneration” in my Vine’s dictionary which I did – ah, I see what you’re saying (still pondering that…) So for now, it’s best I use the words “the holy spirit stirs the heart of a person” instead of regeneration. Half the struggle is using the same language!

Thanks again Cindy!

DJ

example: 2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

breakdown, “chosen you to salvation” how? through sancitification of the Spirit, how? by belief of the truth. Who believes the truth and is sanctified? Those who “believe”.

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

How did He call us? “By the Gospel”(hearing, believing). What did this calling do? Helped us to obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus. Side note: What is His glory?
His presence in us. Christ in us the hope of glory!

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Who puts on the brestplate of faith and Love?
We do. Who puts on a helmet , hope of Salvation? we do. It’s just a reminder of what was given to us.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

To obtain Salvation by who? By Jesus Christ!

CDJ- “regeneration” Is Salvation. When we become born again, that new creature IN Christ Jesus.

The Father draws the lost by His presence. How?
Through His Messengers, Pastors, Apostles, Evangelists, Teachers, Prophets

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The problem lies with #1) we are total so dead we can’t respond!

We aren’t so dead that we can’t respond. We are Spiritually dead and not ‘born again”

Simply “faith comes by hearing”. There really isnt a great mystery to “faith”.

We are in the midst of helping a church that split over Calvinism. It got so extreme that children were coming home saying that they werent chosen by God. Skits were being acted in in VBS where one child was chosen over another. A woman was found crying in a Bible study saying; “I have been praying for my two Sons for years, do you mean to tell me that God may not have elected them?”. 90% of the teens, who were once core kids on the worship team have left the church. Most are in a very bad state: drugs, sexual activity, lesbianism, worse than the prodigal. When you ask them what happened, they respond on this note; ” I thought I was elected until I started sinning, than I just thought I’m probably not Elected otherwise I wouldnt be doing some things, so I thought, I guess I’m not chosen”. This is what Extreme Calvinism does. Their teacher is a five point Calvinist on a “agenda”. I met with him and he has testified to it! He also believes when these kids mess up that they are “not of us”. Sorry, I had to share this. That’s why I found myself on this site. I completely understand the Calvinistic perspective. I am learning what the possible fruit this rudiment has the potential to bear.

Blessings to all…just had to share my heart.
Bob, take it easy. Enjoy your baby…not necessary to challenge at this time.

Blessings,
C. Hartline

CDJ, I’ll get to your questions in later tonight, hopefully. For now, you may be benefited by this article: “Are there 2 Wills in God? Divine Election and God’s Desire for All to Be Saved” by John Piper.

Cindy,

2 Tim. 2:25 is so clear. Paul says to act a certain way in talking to the lost, because they are trapped in the snare of the devil, and God “may perhaps” grant them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth. Notice the perhaps. They are bound by the devil, captive at his will, and God might give them repentance. He might not though. This is clearly repentance being a gift. Think grant, same thing.

Now how can repentance be a gift that may or may not be given. Do all have the opportunity to repent? Well yes, they are all called to repent by the gospel. So this gift must be more than just the opportunity to repent. Before I have repentance, I am unrepentant. God grants repentance and then I am repentant. God is the acting one, not us.

You act like Scripture doesn’t teach that God elects people to salvation, chooses some to be saved. But this is precisely what it says:

2 Thess. 2:13 “…God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation”

1 Thess. 5:9 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” (The word for “appointed” means “destined” and refers to God’s election of us).

See also Eph. 1:4-12.

We’re speaking past each other, I think. You aren’t understanding what I’m really saying. I’ll have to respond in more depth later.

Blessings in Christ,

bob

Cindy may have bowed out (understandably so), but I would still like an answer to her questions particularly on the Greek definition of “regeneration”. I am taking a Precepts class (Romans!) and last night we started getting into Romans 9. Before my “revival”, I believed regeneration was at the time of conversion (at age 7 for me), like the Vine’s dictionary says (that she basically quoted above). But after my revival, I believe that regeneration occurs before salvation. Given the Greek meaning of it above, how do you reconcile that?

Cindy,

If you still see this, thank you for coming online and taking the time! I know it’s been timecomsuming. I’ll be laying off a bit too. Bob has a young baby I see, too, so… (by the way Bob, congratulations!) In regards to these things as being “gifts”, I know that at least the reason why I’m saying that is because of the terminology used in these verses “…grant them repentance” or as in 1 Tim. 1:14 which you quoted above “the Lord *enabled* Paul…” If regeneration means that moment of salvation in Greek (I’m curious to find out what Bob and others say on this), then I will have to use another word to describe those moments of awakening *before* we actually accept Christ. So we believe the order goes like this:

Regeneration (or whatever the new word is I’m going to use) – those times before accept Christ when we feel the Holy Spirit changing our minds, moving inside us (we may say something like, “Well, I hadn’t thought of that before,” or “I didn’t know that, maybe I was wrong and this isn’t as I had thought” and the Holy Spirit (HS) gets us to PONDER these things. What we mean, then, is that the HS is “stirring” us up.

Salvation, or justification – that moment we accept Christ and are *saved*. Phil. 1:29 is here again a good example of the verbiage used “…granted to you… not only to believe, but suffer..” A measure of faith is given here (in order to accept him), but it is by no means complete! Thus our need for the next step:

Sanctification – Rom. 1:17 “righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith”, so our faith grows and grows, thanks to him who helps us and promises to “keep” or “guard” us (1 Tim. 1:12), otherwise I would wander away.

So, we believe that we cannot come to him but that he draws us first (stirs us up), we cannot repent without him, be saved without him, have faith without him or grow without him. We believe nothing can be done on our own apart him, through his strength, for I am too weak, and before salvation, too dead in sin (not just lost) to see my need without his help.

Before regeneration/salvation, I could not choose him, BUT, now that I’m a new creature, NOW I CAN understand my need! Please remember that some of the above verses you listed were talking about the faith of *believers* not unbelievers. That makes a huge difference, because the call to believers regarding faith is to endurance – we *still* cannot do it on our own, for sure, but at least we can now see our need for him. but the *imploring* of non-believers to repent and believe is to salvation – some will be stirred unto salvation, some will not. It is not the choice of the “implorer” (i.e., John the Baptist, prophets, etc.) to choose who to implore (I have just learned this past week that THAT is extreme calvinism! wow), for he/she cannot know who God will stir unto salvation. They can only get the message out!!!

Hopefully we can all agree that our hearts are usually stirred before salvation and that is God who is doing it, if even we can’t agree on who’s doing the choosing. I have a feeling you might saw the “drawing” is done for everyone (that “built-in need” for reconciliation with God), but Matt. makes it clear that many are called, few are chosen, and I’d still rather bank my life on God saving me than left up to chance on whether or not I might choose salvation myself, especially considering how “dead I am in my tresspasses”. Neither one is a pretty picture, I know… At least I have more security that if it was God that worked in me and saved me, then I can trust him that he will also never allow me to permanently fall away (he will “keep” me until the end…)

Well, signing off – and thanks again!

DJ

In context of scriptures
Acts 3:16 The Lame man had faith in Jesus’
name,
1 Pet. 1:21 who by Jesus we now can believe
and have faith in God
Phil. 1:29 strive together for the faith of the Gospel for unto us the Gospel is given to us, on behalf of Christ, not only to believe, but also to suffer for His sake
Rom. 12:3 Present our bodies as a living sacrifice, be transformed by the renewing of our mind, that we may prove what is the will of God, think not highly of ourselves but soberly, as God hath dealt every man the measure of faith as a member of one body, however not the same office.
Acts 15:9 God which know their hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, as He did to us. Purifying their hearts by faith meaning
(the Gentiles)
1 Tim. 1:14 The Lord enabled Paul and counted him faithful. His grace is abundant with faith and Love
1 Cor. 3:5 Carnal Corinthians had strife and divisions saying “I am of Paul, I am of Apollos. Who are Paul and Apollos? Ministers whom you believed even as the Lord gave every man…”to believe”
2 Thess. 1:3 your faith is growing exceedingly
Eph. 1:19-20 what is the exceeding greatness to us who believe
1 Pet. 1:5 we have a lively hope by the resurrection of jesus…we are kept by the power of God through faith unto Salvation
2 Pet. 1:1 to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ

I did not find repentence given “as a gift” either. Though I do believe that the opportunity to repent by His grace is a great gift. The Gentiles were given the opportunity as well. Baptism originally came from the Jews, Hence when John the Baptist came saying “repent and be baptised” …they knew exactly what he meant.

We also must Repent and be baptised. Die with Christ, raise with Christ…”to live”.

I think it would be best for me to graciously slip out of this site. I don’t have the time that is needed to sift all of this out.

So Calvinists believe that God elects certain people, imputes them with faith so they can believe in Jesus?

According to this process than faith would have to be what regenerates, however
Regeneration Grk paliggenesia means:

1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death.

Doesn’t Jesus Christ our Savior give us this new life?
Baptism means- We are dead with Christ, we are raised with Christ.

I don’t believe “Imputed faith” is what gives us new life. It’s Christ and the Holy Spririt that does.

The Father’s greatest gift to us is His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life!

This is the part that disturbes me about this doctrine.

Bob, how would you feel if God elected only one of your children and not the others? Is this the kind of God we serve? This type of thinking is the fruit of Extreme Calvinism.

Where did this “imputed faith” concept come from?
Apparently, the Roman Catholic Church was telling people “when” to baptize their babies! Part of Calvin’s reform incl. that God would give people faith so that when they are ready they will get baptised! I think the “imputed faith” to the point of being “elected for salvation” in extreme Calvanism has gone too far. Why dabble in this rudiment at all. Isnt Christ enough?

Again, I exhort you to “watch” and be careful not to take Calvinism too far.

Sincerely in Him,
C. Hartline

1) If God predestines who will be saved, then how can we say in the same breath that he doesn’t want anyone to perish? He may not *want* them to perish, but the action of the potter making some jars to keep and some throw seems to contradict the emotion and statement of not wanting any to perish.

2) Since I brought up the potter, how do we reconcile that parable with the one we discussed tonight in my class about the wedding banquet in Matt. 22, where the man chose not to put on the clothes while others *did* chose to come *and* to put on the clothes? They seem to say the exact opposite points.

I had it all worked out before this class, but then Precepts threw in the wedding banquet parable and my teacher had a different take on it than I have read (mentioning as a side note about God not wanting any to perish), and now I remember the parable of the potter…